I would love to know more about Islam and the prophet Jesus.

[Jafar]

Hello Jefar! I'd love to answer your questions. Thank you for responding!

1) What I mean by God-man is that the person of Jesus if 100% God and yet 100% man at the very same time. Fully God, Fully man. If this appears as a contradiction I can (if you want me to) explain to you how it is not a contradiction although it is a mystery. God the Son dwelt in heaven in eternity past but then took on a human nature when he came to earth in the person of Jesus.

Well if that's the definition, then it seems Jesus is not alone because I'm also God the Son and so are you and so are everyone.

You believe the gospel accounts right? Take a look at John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."

I don't think I agree with John here...
It seems we used the same word God but referring to a totally different concept.

When I'm using the word "God" I was referring to the same concept as what's being referred as "Abwon d'bishmaiya" by Jesus. Or Tao by Lao Tse, Or Brahman by the Hindus.

God has no beginning thus has no end. He or should I say It is infinite on any dimension.
Due to it's infinity thus the only comparison is to itself. It is what It is, He is who He is.

and then in the very same chapter it says in verse 14 "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory; the glory as of the only begotten of the Father. Full of Grace and Truth" Can you tell me what you think of these verses?

I don't understand what he's saying here, it seems me and John are referring to a totally different concept.

2) You asked "what sin did I do to this God-man"? Romans 3:23 tells us "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". I have sinned in thought, word and deed. This means that I chose to rebel against God and chose to worship myself and other things instead of Him alone. I possess a sinful nature because of the sin of Adam. And therefore, the Bible tells us that we are "by nature children of wrath" Ephesians 2

Oh you rebelled against the infinite creator? the father of everything?
Really? Are you sure?
How's that even possible?

Who wrote such statement in this "Romans 3:23" anyway?
What was he thinking about?

And who is this Adam?
Why his sin became your sin?
Have you met this Adam?

Children of wrath?? Whose wrath is it?
The author's wrath??

3) You asked "Salvation from what?" Well, that's a great question. This is what I need salvation from: "The wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23) The great problem in the world is sin which is man's rebellion against God's law and the result is death; spiritual death, and physical death. Death is what every man deserves for breaking God's command. Because God is a good judge He must punish sin and pour out His wrath upon sinners. I cannot save myself. I do not possess the power to save myself because all I want is sin and to rebel. Jesus Christ, the God-man, died in the place of sinners because of His great and amazing love! This is called "grace" and "mercy". It is undeserved favor of God! He gives us what we don't deserve. And His mercy is Him NOT giving us what we DO deserve.

Again... who is this person who authored "Romans"?
What's his cultural background?
What is he (or she) was thinking about here?

Death is not the opposite of living, death is the opposite of birth.
Death is a natural process just like birth is a natural process all in accordance to the law of the one infinite creator, the father of all.
And nothing, not even one being can violate the law of the one infinite creator.
Let alone perform a 'rebellion' towards it.

It seems the author think that God is a kind of a human king, imposing law which he cannot enforced.
And often faced a rebellion from another human who wanted to be king, performing a coup d'etat..

Such thought process is common within Greek or Roman cultural background though.
The figure of Zeus and Jupiter, the bosses of gods.. who often faced rebellion from another gods and goddesses.

But again I'm an Atheist of those kind of gods and goddesses.
They might exist, either as a real human king or ruler which get mythologized through folklore and legend and somehow get promoted to 'god' status.

The one infinite creator was, is and always will be full of grace and loving, and definitely I don't need any 'salvation' from the love of the one infinite creator and so do you or anyone else.
Have you pondered about the parable of prodigal son as told by Jesus which I've mentioned earlier?

4) You said this:
"God does loves us, and loves you and them as well.
God's love is an unconditional love.... thus no need for somebody to die for it..."

I agree with you that God does love all people.

Not only people, God loves everything... dolphin, orangutan, ants, aliens...
As everything are actually His children...

But can I ask you something? If Allah's love is unconditional toward you, then why do you have to do good works in order to earn His love and favor? For example the Qur'an states: “Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, they will attain salvation: But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls, in hell will they abide (23:102-103)" This verse in the Qur'an says "salvation" as well. I ask you the same question: Salvation from what?

Very good question, I don't understand that either..... I disagree with the author of the Quran there...
It seems that specific part is inline with the author of that Romans book..
Perhaps they share similar cultural background? and the same line of thinking? who knows...

There is however something called the law of reciprocity..
It's among the law of the one infinite creator, the father of all.
Thus it's impossible to break by anyone..
What goes around comes around.. any love you share will be the love you earned back, any hatred that you share will be the hatred you earned back.

That's why Jesus recommend to love even our enemy.
Because the love we share we will earned back.
And also to forgive others, besides we will earned it back it will also liberate us from the sufferings of having hatred and resentment within ourselves.

Furthermore Jesus also recommend not to judge, again it's due to the law of reciprocity.
By the same standard we judged others we will also be judged!
And when we don't judge we will not be judged.

And lastly I also agree with Jesus recommendation of having the attitude of "Let God's will be done!".
It is the attitude of acceptance, a glad acceptance not a forced acceptance due to fear or being threatened.
In arabic such attitude is named as "islam".. not Islam the religion.. but islam the attitude.

And not only Jesus who recommend such attitude, Lao Tse and Siddhartha also recommended such attitude.
By peacefully and glad-fully accept everything we will cleansed our spirit from hatred, fear, resentment and any other negative emotions.

Here is the good news of Jesus and this is good news for you, my friend: God's love is unconditional, yes. But ONLY If you belong to Jesus and He is your savior. The reason is because God does have conditions.

How can you say God's love is unconditional and then you contradict it with saying that God has a condition in your next sentence? 

Again I don't think I need a salvation from the love of one infinite creator.
Instead I welcomed it gladfully! Please don't save me from the love of one infinite creator.

And I don't think you or anyone else need such kind of 'salvation' either.

Heaven is a place where you can KNOW God intimately and worship Him unhindered. Heaven will be heaven NOT because of the rewards or gifts you get from God, but heaven will be heaven because God is the ultimate, all-satisfying gift and supreme treasure. God is calling you to look away from yourself because you cannot by your own good works or submission to God's law earn favor with God and He is calling you to look to Christ because He is the only perfect one who can save and set you free from the bondage of death.

Isn't Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within all of us?



And not only Jesus, Lao Tse saith the same thing..



I personally agree with Jesus and Lao Tse..
And recommending you to look inside yourselves and then you can see by yourselves...

[jzacchio]

Hey Jefar! Thanks for responding. I love how willing you are to talk about these things! I wish it could be in person instead but this will have to do for now

"Well if that's the definition, then it seems Jesus is not alone because I'm also God the Son and so are you and so are everyone."

I agree in one sense that we are children of God only in the sense that we are His "creation". See, this is where I would disagree. I do not believe everyone is God's child. Just because God is the creator of all does not automatically mean that all people are God's children. I am only God's child because He has adopted me into His family. My sin has separated me from God and I need a mediator. That mediator is Jesus Christ. He died in my place so that I could become a child of God forever.

"I don't think I agree with John here...
It seems we used the same word God but referring to a totally different concept."

Okay I would love to know what you mean by "God" then. I am referring to God Who is a person. All-powerful, Eternal, Sovereign, and good. Do you believe the Qur'an? Or do you pick and choose what you like and don't like? If the Qur'an affirms the authority of the "gospel" and the claims of Jesus, then we have to ask ourselves: What is true? Its not about what we agree with or dont agree with; or what we like or what we dont like. It is about what is true. It would seem that if my view of God is every different than yours, somebody has got to be wrong.

"I don't understand what he's saying here, it seems me and John are referring to a totally different concept."

What John is referring to when he says "Word" is the Eternal Word; essentially He is referring to God Himself, who had no beginning and no end. This Eternal Word "became flesh". This means that God has revealed Himself and He revealed Himself in the person of Jesus; the Eternal Word of God.

"Oh you rebelled against the infinite creator? the father of everything?
Really? Are you sure?
How's that even possible?"

Yes. I have rebelled against God. You have too, my friend God tells us not to lie. Have you lied? I have. God tells us not to steal. Have you stolen? I have. God tells us not to lust after our neighbors wife or husband. Have you lusted after someone who wasn't yours? I have. God tells us not to hurt our neighbor. Have you done that? I have. This makes all who have fallen short of God's standard sinners. We rebel against God's law all the time. We prefer to worship ourselves more than God. This creates separation from God! God made everything perfect and good and we chose to go our own way. Now God must punch sin because God is HOLY and GOOD and cannot dwell with sinful humanity. That's why we NEED a savior. You NEED salvation. Jesus said these words; tell me what you think of them: "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) This isn't my own interpretation. This is what Jesus Himself said.

By the way the one who wrote the book of Romans is a man named Paul. He was a Jewish man who was an instrument used by God to write 2/3's of the new testament.

"The one infinite creator was, is and always will be full of grace and loving, and definitely I don't need any 'salvation' from the love of the one infinite creator and so do you or anyone else.
Have you pondered about the parable of prodigal son as told by Jesus which I've mentioned earlier?"

No, we don't need Salvation from God's love. That is not what I said. We need salvation from our sin and the death that it brings. God is not a human king. You are correct. And yes I know the parable very well. It is found in Luke 15. But do you remember what happened before the Father welcomed his son back into his arms? His son rebelled against his father and chose to go his own way. But the beauty of the story is the Father is suppose to represent God and His amazing love toward sinners who come to Him by faith!

I would disagree with your definition of death. Death simply means separation. Death is the separation of the soul from the body. The body dies but the soul lives on.

"Not only people, God loves everything... dolphin, orangutan, ants, aliens...
As everything are actually His children..."

Not disagreeing with you that God loves all His creation. But I disagree with your last statement. I explained why earlier.

"There is however something called the law of reciprocity..
It's among the law of the one infinite creator, the father of all.
Thus it's impossible to break by anyone..
What goes around comes around.. any love you share will be the love you earned back, any hatred that you share will be the hatred you earned back.

That's why Jesus recommend to love even our enemy.
Because the love we share we will earned back.
And also to forgive others, besides we will earned it back it will also liberate us from the sufferings of having hatred and resentment within ourselves."

To this let me ask you some follow up questions. So are you saying that you get what you deserve? So then are you a perfect person? Does this mean that the better you are, the more of God's favor you get? Can I ask you how that is working out for you? Are you able to live up to God's standards perfectly? You are putting a weight upon yourself that you were never able to bear. Do you see? You are making yourself your own savior. You are putting yourself in the place of God. But this always fails because it puts a weight upon us that we are not able to bear so we find ourselves feeling more and more frustrated when we fail. When we do good, we find ourselves judging others self-righteously because they don't live as good as we do. Don't you see? we NEED a savior. We can't be good enough to earn favor with God because even though we can do good things and good works (I believe that you, Jefar, do good works too!), those good works are not enough to make a Holy God accept us forever. For example, lets say I murder a family down the road because it makes me feel good. Can you imagine if I stood before the judge and after the judge pronounced me guilty for killing a family, I go on to tell him "Oh but Mr. Judge. You don't understand. Look at all the good things that I have done!"? What should the judge do in this situation? If the judge lets him go even though he is guilty, would he be a good judge or a bad judge? Do you see, my friend? If we all get what we deserve, then we are all on our way to hell because we've broken God's law (just like I explained earlier).

"How can you say God's love is unconditional and then you contradict it with saying that God has a condition in your next sentence? 

Again I don't think I need a salvation from the love of one infinite creator.
Instead I welcomed it gladfully! Please don't save me from the love of one infinite creator."

Haha I can see why this looks like a contradiction. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough. Let me see if I can make it more understandable.
God love is amazing but God is Holy which means He has conditions. He created every person to worship him perfectly and to obey His commands because in His commands is life and satisfaction. God commands Adam to not eat the fruit in the garden. The Qur'an affirms the same story right? What does Adam do? He rebels against the creator and eats the fruit. Wasn't God giving Adam a condition? He says in essence "If you eat this tree, you will die. If you stay away from this tree, you'll enjoy the life I want for you". God's lays out conditions all throughout the Old Testament. If the people obey God, they receive His blessing. If they don't, they will fall under His wrath. Adam's sin affects all of humanity because he was suppose to be representing all of mankind. Because Adam had other children, his sin was passed down to his other children. This is why the Bible is a beautiful unfolding story of God's grace. Although everyone is born with a sinful nature because of Adam's sin, Jesus comes and perfectly obeys God's law. No one else on earth can obey God's law. That's why Jesus needed to come and obey God's law and by His death on the cross and resurrection from the dead, He satisfied the wrath of God so that you and me wouldn't be children of His wrath any longer if we only place our faith in Him. In short, Jesus met all of God's conditions. So through our faith in Jesus, we enter into the unconditional love of God. By believing in Jesus, God will wash away all of our sin and forgive them and treat us as if we have lived a perfect life. God will love us unconditionally and will no longer remember our sin. He makes us perfect because of what Jesus has done on the cross. Does that make sense? Let's say I owe you A LOT of money. I am in debt to you but I don't have any money. But I have to pay it back. Let's say some one else comes and pays the money in my place. He pays my debt and you get your money back. Now I don't owe you the money any more because the person paid it all for me. Let's also say that after he pays my debt, he deposits 1,0000000 dollars into my bank account. That's kind of like what God did for us. We sinned and owed Him a debt. He gave humans a perfect life and we messed it up. We owe Him. But Jesus comes along and pays our debt for us and then gives us His own righteousness as a gift. We didn't deserve it or earn it. It's a free gift. Isn't that good news? All we have to do is believe in Jesus and we'll receive all of God's forgiveness and righteousness!

"Isn't Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within all of us?"

What do you think this means?

Jesus did say this, yes. But He did not mean what you mean. Jesus is the King over all things. When we believe in Him and follow Him, His presence is constantly within us and He will rule as King in our hearts. We will live as people who love and submit to King Jesus. That is what Jesus meant by His kingdom is inside of us.

I hope this makes sense! I am praying for God to show you the beauty of who He truly is!

[jzacchio]

Sorry Jefar. I don't know how to insert the quotes into my post like you do. So you'll see throughout my last post that I was quoting you every time you see the quotation marks.

[Jafar]

I agree in one sense that we are children of God only in the sense that we are His "creation". See, this is where I would disagree. I do not believe everyone is God's child. Just because God is the creator of all does not automatically mean that all people are God's children. I am only God's child because He has adopted me into His family. My sin has separated me from God and I need a mediator. That mediator is Jesus Christ. He died in my place so that I could become a child of God forever.

Then this is among the key differences of our view.

I don't believe but I know that everything is God's children.
Every finite things is a part of infinity.
There are no things which is outside and can be outside of an infinity.
If a being think that it's possible then I think that being is under his own hallucination that separation is possible.

And your sin or whatever cannot separate you from the one infinite creator.
You don't need a mediator because you are always connected and part of the one infinite creator.

It's one's own hallucination that he/she/it are and can be 'separated' thus make one believe that he/she/it need an 'internet router' to reach the one infinite creator.

And again the one infinite creator does not need anyone to 'die' or 'suffer' as a condition for His love.
I found such idea to be preposterous.

Having said that; I do aware that throughout human history; some group of human seems to be very keen to make a business by playing a role of a 'broker' to the one infinite creator thus came up with such fantasy idea, or should I say 'blatant lies'. It's like creating the demand for his product, creating first a problem to create demand for his solution.

In Jesus era, an example of such group was the Judaist priest, the Sanhedrin.
They think they play the role of 'sole mediator' to the one infinite creator.
The group who beheaded Jesus's cousin and the group who captured and punished Jesus with death punishment.

This group of practitioner of organized religion viewed Jesus and his cousin as a threat for their business.
A threat for their well being, a threat to their power, control and influence over Jewish population.

Because Jesus and friends group message was message of unity and not separation from the one infinite creator.
The Father is accessible by everyone, the Father knew one's prayer even before he/she said it.
When everyone can reach the Father easily and directly, there is no more need of a mediator isn't it? no need of a priest.
Thus a threat to the priest's businesses.

But as time progress, and Jesus group left from this physical world.. the same pattern continues..
A Church then being setup to play the same businesses model as the Sanhedrin.
A council of Islamic cleric are being setup in the exact model as the Sanhedrin.
War among religion is basically a struggle over power and influence... each claiming the 'divine right' as sole mediator to the one infinite creator.
A role which actually nobody are in need of.

Just like the Sanhedrin they play the same game and employ the same tactics.
A tactic based on GUILT and FEAR.
Threat, punishment and torture become their tools to keep their flock of sheep inline.

Okay I would love to know what you mean by "God" then. I am referring to God Who is a person. All-powerful, Eternal, Sovereign, and good.

The one infinite creator which encompasses all things...
No beginning, no end.
The one who also created time and space in the first place, thus has no bound to the constraint of time and space.

Perfectly fit the description of Lao Tse's Tao or Jesus Abwon d'bishmaiya.

Do you believe the Qur'an? Or do you pick and choose what you like and don't like? If the Qur'an affirms the authority of the "gospel" and the claims of Jesus,

Nope I don't 'believe' in any of those books.
However I do found that some part of description within those books resonate with me.

It would seem that if my view of God is every different than yours, somebody has got to be wrong.

Looks like it might be... but I found it normal since mistake is a mean for one's to learn.
We all learn by making mistakes..

Yes. I have rebelled against God. You have too, my friend
This makes all who have fallen short of God's standard sinners. We rebel against God's law all the time. We prefer to worship ourselves more than God. This creates separation from God! God made everything perfect and good and we chose to go our own way. Now God must punch sin because God is HOLY and GOOD and cannot dwell with sinful humanity. That's why we NEED a savior. You NEED salvation. Jesus said these words; tell me what you think of them: "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) This isn't my own interpretation. This is what Jesus Himself said.

Nothing is capable for 'rebellion' against the one infinite creator, it's just impossible.
Thus you don't need to worry about the things which are clearly nobody is capable of doing.

But again your description above fit the tactics pattern of the 'broker' business.
Induce guilt, create fear and then sell the solution.

Have you checked whether this John actually met Jesus himself?
Did this John really wrote what he hears directly from Jesus?
Because I find it odd to find that Jesus is trying to sell his 'sole broker' hood to the one infinite creator.
Looks like Jesus in this John's book has decided to do the same business as The Sanhedrin.

But again thanks for the offer of 'mediator' but I don't need it since I can reach my own heavenly father easily and directly..
And actually so does everyone else...

By the way the one who wrote the book of Romans is a man named Paul. He was a Jewish man who was an instrument used by God to write 2/3's of the new testament.

Ah another person... not Jesus himself... and this Paul has met Jesus directly?
Because I disagree with this Paul on many things, to me it seems that this Paul is a confused person.

But again everyone is an instrument of the one infinite creator...
Through confusion we can find clarity, through hatred we can learn love, through mistakes we can learn truth.
Somebody need to play the role of the contrast.. to make few things shine and stand out..
We cannot perceive light without the contrast of darkness.

To this let me ask you some follow up questions. So are you saying that you get what you deserve? So then are you a perfect person?

Yes... by perfection here means balanced... everyone and everything are perfect in their own way and the role they play.

Does this mean that the better you are, the more of God's favor you get? Can I ask you how that is working out for you? Are you able to live up to God's standards perfectly?

Yes I'm now living out the events as laid out by the one infinite creator.
And things has been working well for me, thank you for asking, and I hope things has been working well for you too.

Within those events there are lessons to be learned...
I would say those events has been quite balanced..
That's actually what perfection is; balanced...

You are putting a weight upon yourself that you were never able to bear. Do you see? You are making yourself your own savior.

Like mentioned above and earlier, I don't need a 'salvation' from the love of the infinite creator.

You are putting yourself in the place of God. But this always fails because it puts a weight upon us that we are not able to bear so we find ourselves feeling more and more frustrated when we fail. When we do good, we find ourselves judging others self-righteously because they don't live as good as we do.

Are you feeling frustrated?
Because I don't feel any frustration.. and I don't judge things or anyone as good or bad either...
I just observe and try to learn something...

"Isn't Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within all of us?"
What do you think this means?

It means what it said it means..
Kingdom of God is here, there and everywhere.
We are all inside God in the first place, separation is impossible and broker / mediator is not needed.

And the easiest way to reach to God is to reach within ourselves..
Thus it's actually reaching in and not reaching out..

PS: to quote is very simple just put the opening with the marking of  bracketed quote and then close it with back slash bracketed quote. Or you can select the text and click "insert quote" button on the editor. It's the button on the second row near the "#" button.

[Emre_1974tr]

Hey everyone! My name is Johnny and I am an evangelical Christian. I'm studying Islam and would love to open a discussion about what you believe about Allah and Jesus. I guess to get this kicked off my first question would be a two fold question: 1) What is your favorite verse in the Qur'an? and 2) Would you consider the Qur'an to be on the same level as Allah? In other words, is the Qur'an worthy of the same level of respect and worship as Allah Himself?

Hoping to learn from you all and hopefully we can have an open minded discussion.

Plese read:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609978.0