Author Topic: Verse 34:10, Mountain and Birds?  (Read 713 times)

NK

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Verse 34:10, Mountain and Birds?
« on: November 15, 2020, 04:28:48 AM »
Asalam-o-Alaikum,


وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ مِنَّا فَضْلًا ۖ يَا جِبَالُ أَوِّبِي مَعَهُ وَالطَّيْرَ ۖ وَأَلَنَّا لَهُ الْحَدِيدَ ﴿١٠﴾
AND [thus], indeed, did We grace David with Our favour: “O you mountains! Sing with him the praise of God! And [likewise] you birds!” And We softened all sharpness in him, (10)

Could someone please shed some light what is mean by mountains and Birds in this verse?

Thanks

Wakas

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Re: Verse 34:10, Mountain and Birds?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2020, 11:07:34 AM »
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Quote:
And We subjected the mountains with David to glorify and the birds... [21:79]
One explanation of the above is that when David praised God by voice, the mountains and birds joined him, i.e with echo and chirping respectively (see 34:10 "...mountains repeat/echo with him and the birds..." and also 38:19).
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

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Re: Verse 34:10, Mountain and Birds?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2020, 12:40:16 PM »
Peace NK.
You may have an idea of what the verse means or you may not.
My opinion of this verses depends on what is the glorification mentioned here of David,birds and mountains ?

If there is any advantage of glorifying God, it is to David. GOD is self-sufficient and does not depend or is effected by glorification from any creature. The benefit of glorifying is only to the creature glorifying. For in this way it attains its perfection and accomplishes the purpose for which it was created.

Consider, what is the result of man's glorification of God? Just, that he believes that his Creator is free from any imperfection or harm, and considering his purpose of life, cheerfully and obediently accepts all the commandments, prescriptive or decreed, of God, and thus attains the excellences and perfection, for which he was created.
Thus, glorifying God is for the betterment of man, and by this glorification man accomplishes the purpose for which he was created.(SEE 24:41)

,Birds and mountains already glorify GOD in many ways as well as singing and echoing the songs by nature.
David s glorification here was expressing  the attributes of God  by singing (Psalms) as affirmation.express that GOD possesses every excellence.
This glorification and praise of God will be impressed on one's heart and mind to help the growth of the soul.
David ,the birds and the mountain are doing  this in common as they are content with whatever God had ordained to take place and cheerfully accept the will of GOD.
GOD bless you.
Peace. ,
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
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tutti_frutti

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Re: Verse 34:10, Mountain and Birds?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2020, 02:11:01 PM »
salam NK

i understand that the mountains and the birds literally praised The God with david, there is no interpretation

how they praised? i believe each in their own language

peace 😊

jkhan

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Re: Verse 34:10, Mountain and Birds?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2020, 07:36:15 PM »
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Quote:
And We subjected the mountains with David to glorify and the birds... [21:79]
One explanation of the above is that when David praised God by voice, the mountains and birds joined him, i.e with echo and chirping respectively (see 34:10 "...mountains repeat/echo with him and the birds..." and also 38:19).

Peace everyone..

I do quite agree with the above statement... This can be done by anyone.. Can't they?  You can train birds to repeat and echo is possible in every mountains hills canyons or even caves or artificial objects..

But why did God used "We gave him from our fadla/bounty , favor... Same verse says iron was made pliable for him...

Isn't it beyond echo and chirping of birds... Since no correct research so far,  I do go in line with above statement of Waqas

Or is the first ever the mountains echoed,  birds repeated abd iron was made pliable.. ?

Iyyaka

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Re: Verse 34:10, Mountain and Birds?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2020, 12:11:46 AM »
salam NK

i understand that the mountains and the birds literally praised The God with david, there is no interpretation

how they praised? i believe each in their own language

peace 😊
Yes as simple as that

Anoushirvan

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Re: Verse 34:10, Mountain and Birds?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2020, 08:02:06 AM »


وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ مِنَّا فَضْلًا ۖ يَا جِبَالُ أَوِّبِي مَعَهُ وَالطَّيْرَ ۖ وَأَلَنَّا لَهُ الْحَدِيدَ ﴿١٠﴾
AND [thus], indeed, did We grace David with Our favour: “O you mountains! Sing with him the praise of God! And [likewise] you birds!” And We softened all sharpness in him, (10)

Could someone please shed some light what is mean by mountains and Birds in this verse?


Salam,

First, the end of this translation doesn't appear to be 100% correct. Thus hadid in Arabic here does not mean (emotional) sharpness in this context but iron, because the end of this verse is connected to the following verse:

34:11 That you may make armor, with perfect fittings. And work righteousness, for I am Seer of what you do.


At least Free-minds' translation is rather correct:

34:10    And We granted David blessings from Us: "O mountains, echo with him, and the birds." And We softened the iron for him.
34:11    That you may make armor, with perfect fittings. And work righteousness, for I am Seer of what you do.


Now these verses echo to those one in Surah 21:

21:78    And David and Solomon, when they gave judgment in the case of the crop that was damaged by the sheep of the people, and We were witness to their judgment.
21:79    So We gave Solomon the correct understanding, and both of them We have given judgment and knowledge. And We commissioned the mountains with David to praise, and the birds. This is what We did.
21:80    And We taught him the making of armor for you to protect you from your enemy. Are you then thankful?


So as can be readily seen here, and unless we claim that Qur'an constantly jumps from rooster to donkey, mountains and birds have symbolically something to do with judgment, law and knowledge.

This shouldn't come as a surprise actually: David and Solomon are biblical figures and belong to Jewish tradition in the first place. Qur'an gives very few details about those figures and implicitly assumes that people to whom it speaks already know the biblical tradition.
So in the biblical tradition, the mountain is the place where Moses received the Law from God.

Now, for complex reasons that I will not go into, David is also a recall of the messianic figure in the Jewish tradition. At least, he is supposed to be the ancestor of the Messiah.
In the ancient Jewish thought, when the Messiah will come, all (pagan) nations will enter into the Alliance with God.
This means that the laws of the pagans will from now on point to the divine law.

That's likely the allegorical meaning behind mountains singing with David.

As for birds, there are also associated to mountains in the Psalms (that the Jewish tradition attributes to David).
In the ancient Jewish tradition, the expression "birds of the sky" used to actually refer to pagans.
Although this page is in French (and unfortunately I don't know any equivalent in English): https://www.lechampdumidrash.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=129:la-parabole-du-semeur&catid=88&Itemid=486 it explains a passage of the Gospels (taken as a kind of Jewish text) that uses this expression "birds of the sky".

It is not a coincidence that immediately preceding verses of Surah 34 from verse 34:7 to verse 34:9 are actually talking about resurrection of the dead, because again, in the ancient Jewish tradition, resurrection of the dead means the end of the idolatry, and the coming of the messianic era, in which pagans enter into the Alliance with God together with the people of Israel.

An additional characteristics of the messianic era (called the world to come in Jewish thought and Hereafter in Qur'an) in the ancient Jewish thought is the relief of the Law.

It appears that the relief of the Law is also symbolically evoked in verse 34:10.
The word hadid, iron, is in assonance with hudud, limits (we could say they are from the same Arabic root, but the concept of triconsonantal root in Arabic was defined much later than Qur'an, in the 8the CE by Arab grammarians).

The word "hudud" is used in Qur'an in the sense of divine laws that put limits to some bad behavior, see http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Hdd#(34:10:12)

This play of word like hadid/hudud is typical of the ancient Jewish thought.

Here, when Qur'an says that iron has been softened for David to make armor for protection, it symbolically means that the divine law will be softened for mankind when it will enter in the world to come, and essentially to put limits to bad behavior.


ibn_a

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Re: Verse 34:10, Mountain and Birds?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2020, 08:04:53 AM »
Salaam,

Asalam-o-Alaikum,


وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ مِنَّا فَضْلًا ۖ يَا جِبَالُ أَوِّبِي مَعَهُ وَالطَّيْرَ ۖ وَأَلَنَّا لَهُ الْحَدِيدَ ﴿١٠﴾
AND [thus], indeed, did We grace David with Our favour: “O you mountains! Sing with him the praise of God! And [likewise] you birds!” And We softened all sharpness in him, (10)

Could someone please shed some light what is mean by mountains and Birds in this verse?

Thanks
Peace NK,


I think that al-jibal and al-tayr could mean something else than mountains and birds.

I would mostly agree with those who say that al-jibal and al-tayr could refer to  tribes/people living in mountains and  people/tribes of al-tayr .


Some elements to explore:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/34/10/

34:10  And We certainly granted David favours from Us. "O  al-jibal  -- awwibī maʿahu /  be obedient with him (David)    / معه اوبي -- and al-tayr (as well)  ." And We softened the iron for him.


 اوبي... / awwibī  ...  from the root:   أوب   Alif Waw Ba

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Awb

some translate اوبي / awwibī  as sing/echo/glorify ...


-In the following verses for example  اواب / awwab from the root   أوب    Alif Waw Ba,   has the meaning of:

obedient / turn to

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/17/

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/19/

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/30/

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/44/

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/50/32/

---

-In the following verse للاوبين   / li al-awwibīna, from the root أوب Alif Waw Ba,   has the meaning of:

those who turn (unto Him) / to the obedient

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/25/

------------------

al-jibal and al-tayr referring to people would make more sense than  mountains and  birds.

Note the favors of God to David:

34:10  And We certainly granted David favours from Us. "O  al-jibal be obedient with him  and al-tayr (as well) ." And We softened the iron for him

- made al-jibal and al-tayr obedient (34:10) with him 

- made al-jibal and al-tayr subjected (21:79 and 38:18) with him  / in order to glorify/sabbih  with him 

- softening  iron for him


which resulted in strengthening his kingdom.  (so there seems to be a purpose for these favors)


34:10  And We certainly granted David favours from Us. "O al-jibal be obedient with him  and al-tayr (as well)  ." And We softened the iron for him

---

21:79 So We gave understanding of the case to Solomon, and to each [of them] We gave sound judgment and knowledge. And We subjected with David al-jibal glorifying/yousabbihna and al-tayr (as well)  and We were the doers (thereof)

---

38:18  Indeed, We subjected al-jibal with him(David) glorifying/yousabbihna in the evening and [the] sunrise.

38:19  And al-tayr assembled, all to him obedient.

38:20  And We strengthened his kingdom and We gave him [the] wisdom and decisive speech.



Concering  "sabbih SBH"

As good logic mentioned in his post in 24:41 the "sabbih SBH" is an example of a meaning of "sabbih SBH"
 
The "sabbih SBH"  concerning  al-jibal and al-tayr  in relation to David is different,  here it is with him (David) i.e for a purpose


if we take al-jibal and al-tayr meaning  mountains and birds -->  they "sabbih SBH" to God  since their creation.

What would be the purpose of subjecting  mountains and birds  to "sabbih SBH"  with David ?

What would the "sabbih SBH" of mountains and birds add  to the "sabbih SBH"  of David ?

Why specifically  mountains and birds and  not other inanimates and/or other animals?

------

See for example Wakas article about other meanings for "sabbih SBH" :

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Quote
Siin-Ba-Ha = to swim, roll onwards, perform a daily course, float, the act of swimming, occupy oneself in: the accomplishment of his needful affairs or seeking the means of subsistence, business/occupation, those who are floating, went/travel far, being quick/swift. To praise/glorify/hallow/magnify, sing/celebrate praise, holy, declaring God to be far removed or free for every imperfection/impurity

Quote
If a human was to SBH like the bird with wings outspread, then the equivalent would be walking, running etc but this is only expressing ourselves through the laws of nature. One may argue that the bird is simply doing what it does out of instinct (inbuilt programming) and whilst humans have an inbuilt program to some extent (see 30:30), we can also choose to express ourselves through God's revealed law, e.g. by carrying out a commandment from The Quran, such as giving to charity, abstinence, feeding a needy person etc. Doing so could be classed as a type of SBH/glorification, and such an association seems to be present in the following verses:

20:30 (Moses said) "Aaron, my brother."
20:31 "Reinforce with him my resolve."
20:32 “And share with him my task.”
20:33 “That we may glorify/SBH You plenty.”
20:34 “And remember You plenty.”

There is also a possible contrast being made in this verse:
And your Lord said to the controlling forces: "I am placing a successor on Earth." They said: "Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it and spill blood while we   glorify  with Your praise, and sanctify You ?" He said: "I know what you do not know." [2:30]

-----

Another element to explore:

A conversation between Solomon and a soldier of the people/tribe of al-tayr (would make more sense than a conversation with a bird)

 27:16  And inherited Solomon David. And he said, "O people! We have been taught (the) mantiq  (of) al-tayr , and we have been given from every thing. Indeed, this surely, it (is) the favor evident.


27:17  And were gathered for Solomon his armies of al-jinn and al-ins and al-tayr, and they (were) set in rows
...
27:20  And he inspected al-tayr and said, "Why not I see the hud-hud or is he from the absent

27:21  I will surely punish him (with) a punishment severe or I will surely slaughter him unless he brings me a reason clear.

27:22  So he stayed not long, and he said, "I have encompassed that which not you have encompassed it, and I have come to you from Saba with news certain

27:23 Indeed, I found a woman ruling them and she has been given of every thing and for her (is) a throne great

27:24  And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of Allah, and has made fair-seeming to them the Shaitaan their deeds, and averted them from the Way, so they (are) not guided

27:25  That not they prostrate to Allah, the One Who brings forth the hidden in the heavens and the earth and knows what you conceal and what you declare

27:26  Allah (there is) no god but He, (the) Lord (of) the Throne the Great.

27:27  He said, "We will see whether you speak (the) truth or you are of the liars

27:28  Go with my letter, this, and deliver it to them. Then turn away from them and see what they return.

----

Note also about Al-Naml

 27:18  Until when they came to the valley of the Naml, a Namlite said: O Naml! enter your houses, lest Solomon and his armies do not crush you while they do not realize.

27:19  So he smiled, laughing from  her speech and said: my Master, enable me to thank for Your favors that You granted me and my parents, and to do good work to please You, and admit me among Your righteous servants by Your mercy

A tribe named Al-Naml woud make more sense than an ant speaking, and that Solomon could hear/understand her speech.

------------------

Anothher intriguing element:

al-jibal and al-tayr   are related to David

- and al-jinn and al-tayr  are related to Solomon


 - al-jibal is not mentioned in relation to Solomon

- and  al-jinn  is not mentioned in relation  to David



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.