Author Topic: Most people will go to Hell  (Read 3450 times)

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5456
  • Karma +4/-1
Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2020, 12:45:27 PM »
Peace aqua.
You say,quote:
Without a contemporary scripture, we may still derive principles, morals or wisdom from previous scriptures without taking them literally. This is not restricted to only the Qur'an.

In that case derive what you wish from whichever scripture you prefer. Or even mix and match
Brother,,you are entitled to your way,.

I hope you do this at least;
Indeed, those who submit themselves absolutely to God alone, while leading a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.*
بَلىٰ مَن أَسلَمَ وَجهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلا خَوفٌ عَلَيهِم وَلا هُم يَحزَنونَ

GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5456
  • Karma +4/-1
Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2020, 12:55:57 PM »
As for this brother aqua,quote:
"The verse (6:19) does not say 'comes after' at all. It says 'whoever it reaches' without implying a future tense."

Are we not discussing Qoran? So it has reached us and we are in the future of its time!
it does imply the present of that time when it was sent and the future after it.Your copy of Qoran testifies this truth.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

aqua

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 251
  • Karma +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2020, 01:48:06 PM »
As for this brother aqua,quote:
"The verse (6:19) does not say 'comes after' at all. It says 'whoever it reaches' without implying a future tense."

Are we not discussing Qoran? So it has reached us and we are in the future of its time!
it does imply the present of that time when it was sent and the future after it.Your copy of Qoran testifies this truth.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

The verse refers to the Prophet using the Qur'an to warn others while he was alive. The obvious meaning is the present of that time, not the future. Stretching this to include the future would be an unjustified extrapolation.

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5456
  • Karma +4/-1
Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2020, 02:04:59 PM »
The verse is talking about Qoran- Bihi- and whoever Qoran reaches. The prophet is using Qoran to warn.and delivering Qoran that reaches others.
i.e The prophet is delivering the message that is warning his generation and reaching others with or without the prophet.
Even in his own generation ,the prophet cannot reach everyone!
God bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1345
  • Karma +4/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2020, 10:34:44 PM »
Peace jkhan.

Why do you think GOD sent scriptures one after another ,then finished with Qoran?

So you think that someone can come across Qoran, will need to  go and follow  Judaism or Christianity?

Of course if one is already a Jew or Christian there is no need ,but if they come across Qoran they will find that it is a criteria for them to establish the truth and the basic of their religion.
GOD ,as a test for the generations before Qoran-Knowing that Qoran will arrive the latest and knowing the time and period requirements- has given them the responsibility to look after the scripture ,keep it clean, but they failed.
Exactly because scriptures kept being corrupted GOD renews the message with the main basic commands and instructions for salvation as well as guiding  the people of that time.
However GOD decided to finish with Qoran and took the task of preservation so that it remains intact for all the following generations.

Of course what GOD revealed in past scriptures can guide  and used for salvation for those that already are Christians and Jews,but Qoran by itself is sufficient and because it is the final scripture it contains all previous message in its details  that is required for those who come across Qoran. There is no need for anything else.
That does not mean other scriptures no longer guide people,but it means people who already follow the bible can be guided by GOD s words in it.What GOD has revealed in it will mean refining the contents.
Superseding and replacing in the sense that all is needed nowadays is Qoran . The same as when any new scripture was sent,the one before it was not needed.
Do you want the verses to confirm this?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Peace GL..
Thank you for your response...
If you in fact insist within your understanding that literally Quran supersedes and replace all previous scriptures, let's dig deep..
First of all I anticipate that you agree that while this Quran was revealing gradually Muslims and Believers of Christians and Jews were living upholding their respective books..

So at that time nothing is corrupted and everything were in tact.. 5:43 proves it..
Those who intend to corrupt and sell the verses for petty price were there and would have probably did as well.. But that is only their saying and twisting verses... But,  Book remained as it was revealed..  5:43 strongly confirms that Torah was there and in it God's command were and it was approachable by any Jew...
So.. Quran cannot supersede or replace Torah when quran was revealed and just after completed revealing as well... At that time for Jews for guidance it is non other but Torah in clear toung of Jews.. And at that time for Christians for guidance it is Injeel in their clear toung.. And Ummis it was Quran in clear Arabic ... But all these should believe in each others scriptures... God never ordered in Quran to Jews or Christians to leave Torah and Injeel respectively and follow Quran instead.. Never... That's sums up any concern.. If they were ordered to leave their scriptures then Quran supersedes and literally replace all previous books.. Once such books are replaced, there is no need those books at all.. No need to approach for guidance.. No need to even believe in them.. Coz it is over.. Coz all you want is in Quran... But that's not the case.. Quran itself order follow your respective books... 5:43-48 is so manifest..
So.. If not ordered then there is no order for current community as well.. But, God has preserved His final book knowing that previous books will get gradually infused human invasion... So.. Now.. In my understanding only Quran is the book which remains in tact as promised by God.. So either Jews or Christian or anyone who is a believer in God should approach this book only since most of the identical explanations of previous books do not tally with Quran..

God says Assiyam is prescribed as it was prescribed those before you..  So.. Common sense.. Those who before Quran doesn't need to change the way they fast while that verse of Quran revealed. . Only these have to fast like they were..

Every Prophet's people should believe in their Messenger's scripture as well scriptures came before and after if applicable...
For example if Ibrahim had a scripture, then Lut doesn't need to follow what is revealed to Ibrahim,  but the scripture of Lut is enough but Lut and his people have to believe in Ibrahim's scripture... Same apply all over the world...
No book will replace another...
We as followers of Quran just need to believe Torah etc.. We were never ordered to follow them.. Since quran is the last of series of scriptures..
Same for previois people.. People of Injeel has to follow Injeel.. But slight difference. They have to believe in Torah etc.. No need to follow though .. But at the same they need to believe which came after Injeel which is Quran... Not only believe but accept if any alterations are placed in Quran.. For example fasting.. They can fast as they were fasting before.. But.. God says in Quran.. They used to betray themselves.. So allowed approaching wives at night.. This was not prescribed in previous scriptures so they did and they feared.. But Quran allowed...for people of Torah they have to accept changes which came in Injeel while following Torah..
That's the difference..
Why God taught Torah to Isa?  Coz Isa needs to know what is revealed in torah coz  there will be some changes in Injeel so that people should follow the changes which came in Injeel as well not only merely Torah..
These three group(Torah, Injeel and Quran) of people are just one example.. Since they lived in close proximity.. There would have been many a scripture in different part of the world..

finally.. God would never order to bring the TORAH and recite if Torah I'd already corrupted and not available as it was revealed... Then even they bring Torah and recite and only corruption would be there.. So.. Torah was in tact and was in use and never a book to be superseded and replaced..
3:93 "All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed. SAY,  "So bring the TORAH and recite it, if you should be truthful."

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5456
  • Karma +4/-1
Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2020, 05:02:11 AM »
Peace jkhan:
Are you sure you want to carry on this conversation since I explained ? Or you want the verses?
OK: Let us quote you first:

"So at that time nothing is corrupted and everything were in tact.. 5:43 proves it.."

5:43 does not prove that nothing was corrupted,here is 5:43:
Why do they ask you to judge among them, when they have the Torah, containing God's law, and they chose to disregard it? They are not believers.
وَكَيفَ يُحَكِّمونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّورىٰةُ فيها حُكمُ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّونَ مِن بَعدِ ذٰلِكَ وَما أُولٰئِكَ بِالمُؤمِنينَ

In fact GOD is saying they have disregarded GOD s words that is in the Torah-sent by GOD- to the preference of the corrupted. writings At the time of the prophet the old testament -as a mixture of GOD s words and men s words- existed the same as it is today. The bible  also existed and GOD says the same to the Christians.
Look brother how GOD s words are precise and mean only uncorrupted stuff that was sent by GOD:
5:44:
WE HAVE SENT THE TORAH,* containing guidance and light. Ruling in accordance with it were the Jewish prophets, as well as the rabbis and the priests, as dictated to them in GOD s SCRIPTURE and as witnessed by them. Therefore, do not reverence human beings; you shall reverence Me instead. And do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price. Those who do not rule in accordance with God's revelations are the disbelievers.
إِنّا أَنزَلنَا التَّورىٰةَ فيها هُدًى وَنورٌ يَحكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيّونَ الَّذينَ أَسلَموا لِلَّذينَ هادوا وَالرَّبّٰنِيّونَ وَالأَحبارُ بِمَا استُحفِظوا مِن كِتٰبِ اللَّهِ وَكانوا عَلَيهِ شُهَداءَ فَلا تَخشَوُا النّاسَ وَاخشَونِ وَلا تَشتَروا بِـٔايٰتى ثَمَنًا قَليلًا وَمَن لَم يَحكُم بِما أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولٰئِكَ هُمُ الكٰفِرونَ

Brother GOD is saying here they have chosen men s words-the corrupted version. GOD is clearly asking them to follow only GOD s SCRIPTURE /WORDS.
They have witnessed this with Moses when the Tablets were even written for him to make sure only GOD s words are followed!!!!
Or do you think at the time of the prophet they did not have the mixed up stuff of Torah and their own made up" hadiths"? The old testament!

Actually the reason for 5:43 when GOD was asking them to revert back to GOD s scripture was this clear evidence they were following the corrupted version of their religion:
5:41-42:
O you messenger, do not be saddened by those who hasten to disbelieve among those who say, "We believe," with their mouths, while their hearts do not believe. Among the Jews, some listened to lies. They listened to people who never met you, and who distorted the words out of context, then said, "If you are given this, accept it, but if you are given anything different, beware." Whomever God wills to divert, you can do nothing to help him against God. God does not wish to cleanse their hearts. They have incurred humiliation in this world, and in the Hereafter, they will suffer a terrible retribution.
يٰأَيُّهَا الرَّسولُ لا يَحزُنكَ الَّذينَ يُسٰرِعونَ فِى الكُفرِ مِنَ الَّذينَ قالوا ءامَنّا بِأَفوٰهِهِم وَلَم تُؤمِن قُلوبُهُم وَمِنَ الَّذينَ هادوا سَمّٰعونَ لِلكَذِبِ سَمّٰعونَ لِقَومٍ ءاخَرينَ لَم يَأتوكَ يُحَرِّفونَ الكَلِمَ مِن بَعدِ مَواضِعِهِ يَقولونَ إِن أوتيتُم هٰذا فَخُذوهُ وَإِن لَم تُؤتَوهُ فَاحذَروا وَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ فِتنَتَهُ فَلَن تَملِكَ لَهُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيـًٔا أُولٰئِكَ الَّذينَ لَم يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يُطَهِّرَ قُلوبَهُم لَهُم فِى الدُّنيا خِزىٌ وَلَهُم فِى الـٔاخِرَةِ عَذابٌ عَظيمٌ
They are upholders of lies, and eaters of illicit earnings. If they come to you to judge among them, you may judge among them, or you may disregard them. If you choose to disregard them, they cannot harm you in the least. But if you judge among them, you shall judge equitably. God loves those who are equitable.

Qoran was clearly saying they were upholders of lies. i.e men s words!!!
GOD was asking them to judge by GOD s scripture only -GOD s words-,not the corrupt ones, HERE:

You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD s REVELATION to you. Do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you from some of God's revelations to you. If they turn away, then know that God wills to punish them for some of their sins. Indeed, many people are wicked.
وَأَنِ احكُم بَينَهُم بِما أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلا تَتَّبِع أَهواءَهُم وَاحذَرهُم أَن يَفتِنوكَ عَن بَعضِ ما أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيكَ فَإِن تَوَلَّوا فَاعلَم أَنَّما يُريدُ اللَّهُ أَن يُصيبَهُم بِبَعضِ ذُنوبِهِم وَإِنَّ كَثيرًا مِنَ النّاسِ لَفٰسِقونَ

You need to sort this yourself ,I will give you one verse that kills this argument,then I will leave it at that:

GOD  IS ADDRESSING ALL THOSE WHO HAD A SCRIPTURE BEFORE QORAN:

O people of the scripture, our messenger has come to you to proclaim for you many things you have concealed in the scripture, and to pardon many other transgressions you have committed. A beacon has come to you from God, and a profound scripture.
يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ قَد جاءَكُم رَسولُنا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُم كَثيرًا مِمّا كُنتُم تُخفونَ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَيَعفوا عَن كَثيرٍ قَد جاءَكُم مِنَ اللَّهِ نورٌ وَكِتٰبٌ مُبينٌ
With it, God guides those who seek His approval. He guides them to the paths of peace, leads them out of darkness into the light by His leave, and guides them in a straight path.
يَهدى بِهِ اللَّهُ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ رِضوٰنَهُ سُبُلَ السَّلٰمِ وَيُخرِجُهُم مِنَ الظُّلُمٰتِ إِلَى النّورِ بِإِذنِهِ وَيَهديهِم إِلىٰ صِرٰطٍ مُستَقيمٍ

Summary:
GOD was asking them to revert back to GOD s words only and filter men s corruption and  men s books out. of the religion.
All god s words guide and are consistent and have the same basic message . But if GOD has not renewed the message and highlighted  the corruption of false religions,GOD s words would have taken a back seat.
The ever living messenger -QORAN-  the last preserved by GOD stand alone scripture has taken the role of doing that in all the generations that come after Qoran.
Look at how our generation ,through Qoran Alone, are filtering and throwing away men s words.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1345
  • Karma +4/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2020, 06:41:48 AM »
Peace.. Brother GL..
I you wish you can continue if you feel that you would probably gain positive...

.. You are referring the Disbelievers by pointing out these verses.. Disbelievers of any time would always try to distort any book..
You neglected that there were many believers of Jews and Christian when quran was revealed...
28:53 "And when it(Quran) is recited to them, they say, "We have believed in it; indeed, it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed we were before it(quran), Muslims (surrendering to God) ."

Whatever you brought and explained were not the work or act of believers who were Christians and Jews... But the act of Disbelievers among the people of Scriptures.. Don't discard that point.. Above verse and below verse confirms that there were believers of the previous scriptures..

10:94 "So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters."

To whome Muhamed would go and ask if Muhamed doubted, if everything OR part of what they read is corrupted ?
There were people of the scripture who were reading there scriptures... And Muhamed only supposed to go and ask those who are already believers who keep reading previous scriptures.. If scriptures were corrupted,  even Muhamed go and ask they would contradict to Quran.. If Muhamed ask ate these verses right?  They would only respond.. No.. Our scripture say entirely different... Coz without their knowledge it is corrupted... But.. God willing...God did preserve Taurah roughly more than a millennium to be able to read during and after Muhamed period...

I think above two is enough for your misconception that previous scriptures were corrupted when quran revealed and they were superseded and replaced...

How can Arabic Quran supersede and replace two scriptures(Tourah and Injeel) which are entirely in two different languages?
No way.. Was Injeel supersede Taurah?  No..

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5456
  • Karma +4/-1
Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2020, 09:34:02 AM »
Peace jkhan.
You say ,quote:
" think above two is enough for your misconception that previous scriptures were corrupted when quran revealed and they were superseded and replaced...!

The bible existed from Constantine in the 3rd century  almost three hundred years before Qoran.
Where are the Torah and Injil that GOD sent down?
If they can be easily accessible GOD would have not renewed the message
There may be old parchments here and there and some of it in the bible, but what they corrupted was the religion (their own books with their own understanding and agenda) and failed to keep GOD s words intact as separate.
Or are you saying the bible are these two scriptures?
GOD allowed enemies of prophets and scriptures to fabricate religions and hide the truth. GOD s test  and knowledge of the times like when it was possible to publish properly for the  masses to access the scriptures and have more copies. .
However some of GOD s words can be found in the bible no doubt but GOD has allowed all the sincere believers to get at the truth.
 GOD knew this and sent Qoran  to confirm both and in that sense supersedes /replaces  as a new scripture  to get to the truth.

Think where Qoran would be now in the religion of Traditional Islam if GOD has not made sure it stayed separate from their other books.
I gave you the verses and my understanding. 
Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1345
  • Karma +4/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2020, 06:05:31 PM »
Peace jkhan.
You say ,quote:
" think above two is enough for your misconception that previous scriptures were corrupted when quran revealed and they were superseded and replaced...!

The bible existed from Constantine in the 3rd century  almost three hundred years before Qoran.
Where are the Torah and Injil that GOD sent down?
If they can be easily accessible GOD would have not renewed the message
There may be old parchments here and there and some of it in the bible, but what they corrupted was the religion (their own books with their own understanding and agenda) and failed to keep GOD s words intact as separate.
Or are you saying the bible are these two scriptures?
GOD allowed enemies of prophets and scriptures to fabricate religions and hide the truth. GOD s test  and knowledge of the times like when it was possible to publish properly for the  masses to access the scriptures and have more copies. .
However some of GOD s words can be found in the bible no doubt but GOD has allowed all the sincere believers to get at the truth.
 GOD knew this and sent Qoran  to confirm both and in that sense supersedes /replaces  as a new scripture  to get to the truth.

Think where Qoran would be now in the religion of Traditional Islam if GOD has not made sure it stayed separate from their other books.
I gave you the verses and my understanding. 
Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Thank you also for the conversation...
Finally.. Just ponder over 5:43 in deep..
Wa'indahum  Taw'rath. ..it means they have Taurah.. Not the corrupted one..
God bless you..

ade_cool

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 206
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2020, 10:01:18 AM »
Salam,

[6:116] And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture,  and that is because they only guess.

Majority of people are following conjecture. Usually inherited from their parents.

Those who were born christians are following conjecture that Jesus is God.
Those who were born sunnis are following conjecture that Muhammad is God's partner.
Those who were born shias are following conjecture that imam Ali is God's partner.
Those who were born atheists are following conjecture that God does not exist and we will not be responsible for what we do in this world.

Futhermore, majority of people are not doing SALAT resulting in they cannot be warned.

[35:18] And no bearer may carry the burden of another. And if one who is weighed down by his load calls on another to carry it, no part  of it may be carried, even if it were a relative. You will only be  able to warn those who are concerned towards their Lord while unseen, and they aqim SALAT. And whoever contributes,  is contributing for himself. And to God is the final destiny.

Christians who are doing SALAT can be warned that Jesus is not God.
Sunnis who are doing SALAT can be warned that Muhammad is not God's partner.
Shias who are doing SALAT can be warned that imam Ali is not God's partner.
Atheists who are doing SALAT can be warned that God exists and we will be responsible for what we do in this world.

But since majority are not doing SALAT, christians stay christians, sunnis stay sunnis, shias stay shias, atheists stay atheists ...each following respective conjecture and cannot be warned.

At the end, they will be asked how they end up in hell:

[74:42] “What has caused you to be in the scorching heat?”
[74:43] They said: “We were not of those who do SALAT.”



Wassalam,