Author Topic: Most people will go to Hell  (Read 3449 times)

Amra94

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Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2020, 08:50:37 AM »
Where does it say in the Qur'an that its rules and rituals are timeless and meant for all times in the future?

After many rules you will find the statement "these are the limits set by God, do not transgress them" such as some divorce rules:

2:229 Divorce is twice. Then, either keep [her] in an acceptable manner or release [her] with good [treatment]. And it is not lawful for you to take anything of what you have given them unless both fear that they will not be able to keep [within] the limits of God. But if you fear that they will not keep [within] the limits of God, then there is no blame upon either of them concerning that which she ransoms herself by. These are the limits of God, so do not transgress them. And whoever transgresses the limits of God - it is those who are the wrongdoers. .

2:232
And when you divorce women and they have reached their term, do not prevent them from remarrying their [former] husbands if they agree amongst themselves on an acceptable basis. That is instructed to whoever of you believes in God and the Last Day. That is better for you and purer, and God knows and you do not know.

65:1
O prophet, when you divorce women, divorce them for their waiting period and keep count of the waiting period, and fear God, your Lord. Do not turn them out of their houses, nor should they leave unless they are committing a clear immorality. And those are the limits [set by] God. And whoever transgresses the limits of God has certainly wronged himself. You do not know; perhaps God will bring about a [different] matter after that.

65:2
And when they have reached their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or part with them according to acceptable terms. And bring two just witnesses from among you and establish the testimony for God. That is instructed to whoever should believe in God and the Last Day. And whoever fears God - He will make a way out for him

Fasting

2:187 It has been made lawful for you to go to your wives the night [preceding] fasting. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. God knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned towards you and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which God has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes clear to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the night.  And do not have relations with them as long as you are devoted in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] God, so do not approach them. Thus, God makes His verses clear to the people so that they may fear [Him].

How to make your will

4:12 And for you is half of what your wives leave if they have no child. But if they have a child, for you is one fourth of what they leave, after any will they [may have] made or debt. And for [the wives] is one fourth if you have no child. But if you have a child, then for them is an eighth of what you leave, after any will you [may have] made or debt. And if a man or woman leaves neither ascendants nor descendants but has a brother or a sister, then for each one of them is a sixth. But if they are more than that, they are partners in a third, after any will which was made or debt, as long as there is no detriment [caused]. [This is] a will from God, and God is Knowing and Forbearing.

4:13
These are the limits [set by] God, and whoever obeys God and His messenger will be admitted by Him to Gardens [in Paradise] in which rivers flow beneath them, abiding eternally therein; and that is the great success.

4:14
And whoever disobeys God and His messenger and transgresses His limits - He will put him into the Fire to abide eternally therein, and he will have a humiliating punishment.

General description of what a believer is

9:112 It is the believers who repent, who are devoted to worship, who praise their Lord, who fast, who bow down and prostrate themselves, who encourage good and forbid evil, and who observe the limits set by God. And give good news to the believers.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2020, 09:30:58 AM »
Where does it say in the Qur'an that its rules and rituals are timeless and meant for all times in the future?

سلم salam/peace عليك alayka/upon you

see اذ idh/when (past/separate episode) and اذا idha/when of (trailing alif, present/future)

2:30 واذ wa-idh/and when (time adverb past/separate episode)
 قال said ربك lord your للمليكه to the controllers/angels…


2:180 كتب written عليكم upon you اذا idha/when of (present/future) حضر come about احدكم anyone you الموت the death ان if ترك left خيرا best of الوصيه the instruction/behest (last will and testament) للولدين to the parents two والاقربين and the near relatives being بالمعروف in the respectable حقا duty of علي on المتقين the righteous

2:231 واذا wa-idha/and when of (present/future) طلقتم divorce you النسا the womenfolk...

2:282 يايها O you الذين the ones امنوا believes ye of اذا idha/when of (present/future) تدينتم contracted amongst you بدين in/any debt الي to اجل term مسمي specified فاكتبوه so writes ye it وليكتب and let write بينكم between you كاتب scribe ...

6:54 واذا wa-idha/and when of (present/future) جاك approach you الذين the ones يومنون believing بايتنا in signs ours فقل so say سلم salam/peace عليكم alaykum/upon you كتب written ربكم lord yours علي on نفسه soul his/himself الرحمه the mercy انه that he من who عمل work منكم among you سوا evil of بجهاله in ignorance ثم furthermore تاب turned من from بعده after it واصلح and reconciles فانه so indeed he غفور forgiver رحيم merciful


aqua

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Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2020, 01:40:53 PM »
After many rules you will find the statement "these are the limits set by God, do not transgress them" such as some divorce rules:

2:229 Divorce is twice. Then, either keep [her] in an acceptable manner or release [her] with good [treatment]. And it is not lawful for you to take anything of what you have given them unless both fear that they will not be able to keep [within] the limits of God. But if you fear that they will not keep [within] the limits of God, then there is no blame upon either of them concerning that which she ransoms herself by. These are the limits of God, so do not transgress them. And whoever transgresses the limits of God - it is those who are the wrongdoers. .

2:232
And when you divorce women and they have reached their term, do not prevent them from remarrying their [former] husbands if they agree amongst themselves on an acceptable basis. That is instructed to whoever of you believes in God and the Last Day. That is better for you and purer, and God knows and you do not know.

65:1
O prophet, when you divorce women, divorce them for their waiting period and keep count of the waiting period, and fear God, your Lord. Do not turn them out of their houses, nor should they leave unless they are committing a clear immorality. And those are the limits [set by] God. And whoever transgresses the limits of God has certainly wronged himself. You do not know; perhaps God will bring about a [different] matter after that.

65:2
And when they have reached their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or part with them according to acceptable terms. And bring two just witnesses from among you and establish the testimony for God. That is instructed to whoever should believe in God and the Last Day. And whoever fears God - He will make a way out for him

Fasting

2:187 It has been made lawful for you to go to your wives the night [preceding] fasting. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. God knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned towards you and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which God has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes clear to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the night.  And do not have relations with them as long as you are devoted in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] God, so do not approach them. Thus, God makes His verses clear to the people so that they may fear [Him].

How to make your will

4:12 And for you is half of what your wives leave if they have no child. But if they have a child, for you is one fourth of what they leave, after any will they [may have] made or debt. And for [the wives] is one fourth if you have no child. But if you have a child, then for them is an eighth of what you leave, after any will you [may have] made or debt. And if a man or woman leaves neither ascendants nor descendants but has a brother or a sister, then for each one of them is a sixth. But if they are more than that, they are partners in a third, after any will which was made or debt, as long as there is no detriment [caused]. [This is] a will from God, and God is Knowing and Forbearing.

4:13
These are the limits [set by] God, and whoever obeys God and His messenger will be admitted by Him to Gardens [in Paradise] in which rivers flow beneath them, abiding eternally therein; and that is the great success.

4:14
And whoever disobeys God and His messenger and transgresses His limits - He will put him into the Fire to abide eternally therein, and he will have a humiliating punishment.

General description of what a believer is

9:112 It is the believers who repent, who are devoted to worship, who praise their Lord, who fast, who bow down and prostrate themselves, who encourage good and forbid evil, and who observe the limits set by God. And give good news to the believers.


Thanks for the verses. There is an assumption that the specific 'limits' mentioned in the Qur'an are timeless and intended for all times. There are similar verses in the Bible which speak of following God's rules/limits, eg. John 14:15. If rules/commandments in the Bible can become outdated, why not the Qur'an? Are we supposed to make a distinction between God's messages?

Amra94

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Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2020, 06:22:55 PM »

Thanks for the verses. There is an assumption that the specific 'limits' mentioned in the Qur'an are timeless and intended for all times. There are similar verses in the Bible which speak of following God's rules/limits, eg. John 14:15. If rules/commandments in the Bible can become outdated, why not the Qur'an? Are we supposed to make a distinction between God's messages?
You're talking about assumption but you're the one making the assumption that the Quran is not timeless. You have no proof of that.

5:48
And We have sent the Book down to you in truth, confirming that which is between one's hands of the Scripture and as a Criterion over it. So judge between them by what God has sent down and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We made a law and a method. Had God willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. Your return is to God all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning those [matters] in which you used to differ.

aqua

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Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2020, 07:13:52 PM »
You're talking about assumption but you're the one making the assumption that the Quran is not timeless. You have no proof of that.

5:48
And We have sent the Book down to you in truth, confirming that which is between one's hands of the Scripture and as a Criterion over it. So judge between them by what God has sent down and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We made a law and a method. Had God willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. Your return is to God all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning those [matters] in which you used to differ.


Well the verse you just quoted even shows that laws in each scripture were for specific times. If there is no new scripture, we can still take principles and wisdom from previous scriptures.

good logic

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Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2020, 01:48:01 AM »
Peace aqua.
You say,quote:
"There is an assumption that the specific 'limits' mentioned in the Qur'an are timeless and intended for all times. There are similar verses in the Bible which speak of following God's rules/limits, eg. John 14:15. If rules/commandments in the Bible can become outdated, why not the Qur'an? Are we supposed to make a distinction between God's messages?"

There is a difference  between GOD s commandments to all generations and rules /regulations/instructions  how to lead day to day life of particular generations.
Or are you saying "do not kill  an innocent person" is an outdated command?
Also GOD catered for all generations: Or does GOD only send messengers/scripture to the past generations?:

When we substitute one revelation in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, "You made this up!" Indeed, most of them do not know.
وَإِذا بَدَّلنا ءايَةً مَكانَ ءايَةٍ وَاللَّهُ أَعلَمُ بِما يُنَزِّلُ قالوا إِنَّما أَنتَ مُفتَرٍ بَل أَكثَرُهُم لا يَعلَمونَ
Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."
قُل نَزَّلَهُ روحُ القُدُسِ مِن رَبِّكَ بِالحَقِّ لِيُثَبِّتَ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَهُدًى وَبُشرىٰ لِلمُسلِمينَ

 GOD has made sure to move with the times like you say  and sent Qoran to "supersede/replace " older scriptures. , What replaces Qoran for you now if you say its commands are outdated> Or do you pick and choose ? Or where is today s scripture from GOD?

Things that are outdated are clear in Qoran, they applied/were related  for the Nabi/prophet s and believers during their life and they were clear instructions for that time like for example:the instructions about" do not raise your voice above the prophet s -shouting match with him-" or "Sallu Alaihi wa Sallimou Taslima"... or their dealings with others at that time like treaties... etc
These instructions that are obvious will not make sense nowadays unless the nabi/prophet is still living with us.

 Qoran is clear that  it is a scripture for all generations from the prophet onwards:
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever comes after you. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside God." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."
قُل أَىُّ شَىءٍ أَكبَرُ شَهٰدَةً قُلِ اللَّهُ شَهيدٌ بَينى وَبَينَكُم وَأوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هٰذَا القُرءانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ أَئِنَّكُم لَتَشهَدونَ أَنَّ مَعَ اللَّهِ ءالِهَةً أُخرىٰ قُل لا أَشهَدُ قُل إِنَّما هُوَ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ وَإِنَّنى بَرىءٌ مِمّا تُشرِكونَ
 !Wa Man Balagh"   Whomever comes after and reaches them -all the generations after that time!-

Qoran is also clear that  we  try our best to do what is possible and practical with good intention and honesty . The major commands  and straight path of good deeds and good morals   are crystal clear in it for a minimum requirement. of salvation-to be saved-
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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jkhan

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Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2020, 04:15:58 AM »
If anyone perceive that Quran supersedes or replaces all previous  scriptures that is a big lie... Non of God revealed scriptures outdates..  In all there is instructions that are worthy looking at even now...
As the final scripture Quran confirmed and confirms all previous  scriptures and was and will be overseeing them in case those scriptures still around..
Below two verses are more than evident in this regard..

5:48 "And We have revealed to you, the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it.

2:91 "   
And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them. .... "

In addition to that, Bible is never a scriprure from God who revealed the scripture Quran.. Why God says Quran confirms while oversee the previous scriptures...  So as a confirmation and overseer book, Qurab doesn't mention any  previous  books by the name of Bible.... Injeel and Torah etc are there... So.. Referring from Bible to substantiate is not valid with above category.. Unless if the book Bible's name is Injeel since ancient time.. But that's not the case... So.. Bible could be mere Hadith plus mixed up fabrication by human...
But Torah is.. Even still the name of the book of Jews that has the validity to confirm and oversee... If anything goes against in  Torah compared to what is mentioned in Quran then what is mentioned in Quran  is valid for Jews.. So that, what contradicts in Torah is human infusion.. That's the beauty of Quran to confirm previous scriptures and oversee..
Further if anyone claims that such and such books are from God and much older to Quran Injeel and Torah then even those books should be confirmed with Quran...if not we at believers can neglect all such claims and discard such books.. But will and should always believe in all previous  books(all of them)  regardless we have read or not...

So.. Quran never supersedes or replaces any previous  scriptures.. If any such scriptures or part of them available worth reading.. And take what go in line with Quran and leave fabrication..
For example Jews still can take Torah as their guiding scripture.. No harm at all.. But only one condition they have to believe in scriptures came after Torah.. i e Injeel and Quran..
So.. Nothing outdates.. All Gods books are equal..
If anything is outdated, prophet Mohamed doesn't need to say to Jews to bring Torah and read it to him... When Torah revealed compared to Quran?... Let's roughly hope at least a millennium.. So everything is valid.. Only God kept sending messages through messengers after messengers repeating almost same.. Foundation of messages never changed... And will never.. And foundation all what is vital for salvation ...
Even in messages very much targeted certain group or people or even individual they all have meaning to us for our salvation... Coz believing in all verses makes one perfect believer in God's scripture..

If anyone wonders then what confirms Quran,...Nothing confirms Quran or oversee it... Quran itself a confirmation of all truth.. Only believers will perceive it.. This will rain the book even at the time of doom.. No need to mention in Quran or in previous books about the time of doom.. Quran says you will see pregnant women lose her womb(not exact verse) ... That would only be witnessed by those who live at that time.. And that would make believers of that time in wonders...
So this QURAN will never lose its shine until day of ressurection

good logic

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Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2020, 06:38:54 AM »
Peace jkhan.

Why do you think GOD sent scriptures one after another ,then finished with Qoran?

So you think that someone can come across Qoran, will need to  go and follow  Judaism or Christianity?

Of course if one is already a Jew or Christian there is no need ,but if they come across Qoran they will find that it is a criteria for them to establish the truth and the basic of their religion.
GOD ,as a test for the generations before Qoran-Knowing that Qoran will arrive the latest and knowing the time and period requirements- has given them the responsibility to look after the scripture ,keep it clean, but they failed.
Exactly because scriptures kept being corrupted GOD renews the message with the main basic commands and instructions for salvation as well as guiding  the people of that time.
However GOD decided to finish with Qoran and took the task of preservation so that it remains intact for all the following generations.

Of course what GOD revealed in past scriptures can guide  and used for salvation for those that already are Christians and Jews,but Qoran by itself is sufficient and because it is the final scripture it contains all previous message in its details  that is required for those who come across Qoran. There is no need for anything else.
That does not mean other scriptures no longer guide people,but it means people who already follow the bible can be guided by GOD s words in it.What GOD has revealed in it will mean refining the contents.
Superseding and replacing in the sense that all is needed nowadays is Qoran . The same as when any new scripture was sent,the one before it was not needed.
Do you want the verses to confirm this?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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good logic

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Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2020, 07:02:44 AM »
Here are some verses giving you the background of what I said in my previous post:

2:213″ (At the start) The people used to be one community, when GOD sent the prophets/ messengers as bearers of good news as well as warners. HE sent down with them a scripture ( The word of GOD only!) bearing the truth ( submission to HIM and total loyalty.) to judge among them in their disputes ( to correct those who have deviated from the truth). Ironically those who received that scripture ( and deviated) were the ones who rejected any new scripture ( that is meant to correct them) despite clear proofs (that it is from GOD) given to them. This is  due to jealousy and division ( and arrogance). GOD guides those who believe ( submit and are loyal) to the truth that is disputed by all others ( all the other religions), in accordance with his will.”

2:253″ These prophets/ messengers; (that GOD has been sending) We blessed some of them more than others .( it is up to GOD) For example one was spoken to ( by GOD), and We raised some of them to higher ranks. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles, and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had GOD willed, their followers would not have fought with each other, after the clear proofs have come to them. Instead, they disputed among themselves; Some of them believed ( submitted and stayed loyal to GOD) and some disbelieved. ( and took on other gods/ idols- prophets as idols) Had GOD willed they would not have disputed. ( But HE tests the loyalty of everyone) Everything is in accordance with the will of GOD.”

Of course we believe GOD and all the scriptures that were sent are the truth.
Qoran is now with us as the last scripture correcting all the previous corruptions and confirming all other scriptures. i.e a befitting replacement.
GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

aqua

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Re: Most people will go to Hell
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2020, 12:21:05 PM »
There is a difference  between GOD s commandments to all generations and rules /regulations/instructions  how to lead day to day life of particular generations.
Or are you saying "do not kill  an innocent person" is an outdated command?
Also GOD catered for all generations: Or does GOD only send messengers/scripture to the past generations?:

Statements like 'do not kill an innocent person' may form a principle or moral which can be universally understood and applied in modern times. This is different to specific rules or instructions which are time-bound and context-specific.

Quote
GOD has made sure to move with the times like you say  and sent Qoran to "supersede/replace " older scriptures. , What replaces Qoran for you now if you say its commands are outdated> Or do you pick and choose ? Or where is today s scripture from GOD?

Without a contemporary scripture, we can still derive principles, morals or wisdom from previous scriptures without taking them literally. This is not restricted to only the Qur'an.

Quote
Qoran is clear that  it is a scripture for all generations from the prophet onwards:
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever comes after you. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside God." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."
قُل أَىُّ شَىءٍ أَكبَرُ شَهٰدَةً قُلِ اللَّهُ شَهيدٌ بَينى وَبَينَكُم وَأوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هٰذَا القُرءانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ أَئِنَّكُم لَتَشهَدونَ أَنَّ مَعَ اللَّهِ ءالِهَةً أُخرىٰ قُل لا أَشهَدُ قُل إِنَّما هُوَ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ وَإِنَّنى بَرىءٌ مِمّا تُشرِكونَ
 !Wa Man Balagh"   Whomever comes after and reaches them -all the generations after that time!-

The verse (6:19) does not say 'comes after' at all. It says 'whoever it reaches' without implying a future tense.