Author Topic: Losing Faith  (Read 2674 times)

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2020, 12:42:39 PM »
Salam!
Without creation, there is no creator. Without evil, there is no good.
Peace!

jkhan

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2020, 05:37:08 PM »
Salam!
Without creation, there is no creator. Without evil, there is no good.
Peace!

Peace....

I don't think later part of your statement is acceptable with logic...

**** No creation without Creator... Okay

*** without evil no good... what prompted you to mention this..

Evil is opposite of good

Creation is not opposite of Creator...

I think you better rethink about it... If I say for example..  No love without hatred... Does it sound acceptable...

Evil is not must to be good...

jkhan

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2020, 06:13:30 PM »
2:30 "And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."


Does the above verse giving anyone a hint that God created evil?
Allah never advocates evil... First of all verify what is creation?
Evil is not part of creation... Is it?  Debate if you can...
If evil is creation of God,  how can God punish ? Will human being be silent without asking on the day of ressurection "Why do you punish us for what you created within us?"


amin

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2020, 09:06:46 PM »
 Quran or the morals of the society are our collective understanding of the world and the natural laws, some will be applicable to circumstances and cannot be universally applied, even Quran says so.
Yes like you i too have all the doubts on Quran's veracity and how it become a book, what if it has messages not been corrupted due to difficiency or changes in languages  etc etc..and I think thats what every Individual have and should have and its normal as we do not witness the messenger, we are not so closely related to the culture where He came from. In fact if we are not doing that we are actually not following the Quranic message itself, where the then older corruptions and invalid cultural rules are all invalidated by Quranic message itself and it will be hypocritical on our part.

Jafar

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2020, 02:27:55 AM »
I’m Muslim and 30 years old but have been struggling with belief for a decade or.

Peace Blitz99

It really doesn't matter on what identity that you're on now.. because as you will eventually found out, by yourself, the identity that you're on now is temporary.

But the 'struggle' is the main point, by 'struggling' here I assumed that it's the 'questioning' and the 'seeking'.
Because by 'questioning' and 'seeking' you shall then find.
It's an experience journey that you have to take, that each individual soul shall need to take.... including Mr. Mohammad who lived 1400 years ago... not too different.

Thus it's NOT the 'believing' but the 'seeking' which is the main objective.
Seeking is required in order for you to know.. and not merely believe.

Similar to applying 'scientific method', since you're very familiar with it.
Through 'seeking' you will encounter and know many things, many of those are turnout to be merely 'hypothesis' or 'not entirely true', but through knowing it, it will be one step more towards knowing the answer. And you will gain more knowledge and experience in the process.

By recognizing the 'falsehood of hypothesis' you shall eventually arrived at 'acceptable theory'.
By recognizing the 'blacks' you shall eventually recognize the 'whites'.
But the blacks need to be present in order for the 'whites' to be recognized.

Throughout your seeking journey, let your conscience be your guide... and then differentiating between the 'blacks' and the 'whites' will not be so difficult actually. And once you 'recognized' it, it will be then your own choice to choose which one better suit you.

"Let there be no compulsion in judgement, as truth stands out clear from error"
-- 2:256

The 'contradiction' or should we say the 'contrast' is not a 'mistake', it's there to be recognized.
And this universe is full of it, infact this universe was built upon it.


TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2020, 05:29:06 AM »
2:30 "And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
Salam jkhan!
You need to study carefully. What does خ ل ف means originally? See my word by word translation below:

Arabic 2:30
وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُون
2:30 "And when He said Lord your for the angels: "Indeed, I will make in the earth/land an opposition/opposite creation/enemy(خلیفۃ). " They said: "Will You place in it who causes corruption therein and who sheds the blood, while we perform tasks with Your HMD/approval and purify (it i.e.,the earth) for You? " He (Allah) said, "Indeed, I know what you do not know."
Hope you will get all the answers by pondering upon it. Let know if I am wrong. Thanks!
Peace!

jkhan

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2020, 08:50:06 AM »
Salam jkhan!
You need to study carefully. What does خ ل ف means originally? See my word by word translation below:

Arabic 2:30
وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُون
2:30 "And when He said Lord your for the angels: "Indeed, I will make in the earth/land an opposition/opposite creation/enemy(خلیفۃ). " They said: "Will You place in it who causes corruption therein and who sheds the blood, while we perform tasks with Your HMD/approval and purify (it i.e.,the earth) for You? " He (Allah) said, "Indeed, I know what you do not know."
Hope you will get all the answers by pondering upon it. Let know if I am wrong. Thanks!
Peace!

Peace TMTT...
Thank you for response and your own translation / Understanding for word Khalifa... Be it opposite, enemy,  authority or viceroy or Vicegerent etc etc... Nothing of that makes my understanding go different ... Whatever you take the meaning, all it talk about human being and Jin...
That human being and Jin have all the aforesaid qualities when they go away from the right path... But Malaika don't have that quality and they don't want to fall into that quality... Even by chance they fall(iblees),  they won't remain as malaika.. Even they wish to remain, God won't let them be as malaika..

That's why malaika spoke the truth in verse 2:30.. Coz they never harm or do evil save good... That's why we are unfortunately on Earth.. Being on earth itself a sign that we are never equal to malaika... Do you get me bro..

Malaika has no authority beyond what God says.  God says only what is good... They do good and only follow God..

But the one on Earth has authority to do what is good and what is evil... Coz of freedom / free will... And coz we are opposite to malaika..
So God didn't create evil.  Evil is the creation of those who are on the earth who themselves made up...
So take khalifa whatever the conventional meaning or dictionary meaning all work out for those on Earth...

But the significant point is,  malaika only thought they can only be good and not those on Earth... But God knows otherwise..
So dude.. Let's us show to malaika that we can also be good and that also with total freedom..

Why did God say to Adam that this is not the place for you anymore.. Go to earth... Coz only pure ones who never go against God are allowed to stay with God ....

I suggest to you and anyone, try to grasp the difference between malaika and those on earth... So that you will definitely understand the verse 2:30 and all the possible meaning of khalifa..
God never created evil and never will.. That doesn't suit with any attributes of God...

Did iblees betray and provoked evil or God did?  Did Adam betray abd wronged or God taught him? 
No... God never created it... But it is error of creature against the creator...

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2020, 10:38:06 AM »
Salam jkhan!
Iblees did not fall. He was ordered to get out (فاھبط and فاخرج) in 7:13 but Iblees got the permission to sit in صراط المستقیم till the judgement day and you are still seeking guidance towards this اھدنا الصراط المستقیم. Read 7:16.
(How funny?)
Everything Allah created has an opposite like day and night, black and white, true and false, hatred and love, good and evil... And this opposite is also created by Him. Or do you think their is another creator who created the evil? Or evil came into being by itself? Think again, brother!
Peace!

jkhan

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2020, 09:25:22 PM »
Salam jkhan!
Iblees did not fall. He was ordered to get out (فاھبط and فاخرج) in 7:13 but Iblees got the permission to sit in صراط المستقیم till the judgement day and you are still seeking guidance towards this اھدنا الصراط المستقیم. Read 7:16.
(How funny?)
Everything Allah created has an opposite like day and night, black and white, true and false, hatred and love, good and evil... And this opposite is also created by Him. Or do you think their is another creator who created the evil? Or evil came into being by itself? Think again, brother!
Peace!

Peace...
Calm down and relax... Truth is not hidden if you search for it...  But if adamant to prove the truth as wrong that will never happen... Coz truth will definitely shine...

I don't agree with your statement . According to QURAN iblees was fallen... And then only he was expelled...  But not all of a sudden he was fallen he was expelled but when he started to make others also into his way... Then only he was ousted... Coz as I said God only keep pure good ones in His Kingdom.... That's pure... Earth is not the kingdom of God though He created it... Coz God has given freedom ... But in God's Kingdom only what God's order and what God pleased is happening...

Nothing is funny...
Iblees got the permission till the day of judgement and God didn't create iblees in the first place as evil person... Betrayed and went against the creator... God didn't create Adam a bad person... Are you here to say when God said that He  taught Adam, does it include kill an innocent human being.. No.. No.. God never taught him.. But wronged against his creator for desire .and deception .. Or do you want to say that Adam taught his son to kill his other son? Funny thing is his son knew to kill (evil act) his brother but not even knew to bury (good act) the corpse.. How son learned before father the worst evil of killing.. Coz evil is an option..

Don't forget that human can also create out of what God has created.. Did God create for us house on earth...  Did God create cloth or we did create out of what God created... So Dude ..evil is invention of human and Jin negating the good and reality....

Put more thoughts bro..
Day and night.. Black and white... True and false.. Hatred and love.. Good and evil.. 
They may be opposite to one another.. But why claim that God created all of them... Coz god create only good and what is right and apt...

Okay Day is good and night is good.. Black is good and white is good.. God created or else who created.. Love is good,  truth is good, and good is good.. Lol.. all God created... Coz they are good...
God says He is truthful... So how can He be False..
By creating Evil what He expects? If God created evil we should never feel wrong after doing an evil act and we should feel same as we did good.

Imagine.. Why Iblees and Adam didn't question God saying that You created evil within us so we used it or we erred.. So why blame us... Coz Adam and iblees definitely knew they were taught by Allah what is good and what is evil... So God never wanted them to go in evil way.. Two paths to choose from... 90:10... God didn't taught evil.. God showed right and wrong.. It is must as creator.. But always ordered to follow right path... If we chose wrong path evil is the way... The one who choose the evil is the creator of evil...

If God created evil why God questioned iblees why not obey His order... If God created evil why God said to iblees this is not place for you to be arrogant and boast... Why God warned iblees's arrogance is wrong and evil... If He created evil... If God created evil He only should expect evil from His creatures... Not good.. Why expect from us good while He created evil in us...?
Why creates hell after creating evil creatures...?
Does it make sense? Why God is against evil if He is the Creator of evil? Why God so angry and ferocious on those who chose evil path? Is God acting?

There is no another Creator of evil but self..

When God says He created human being .. Then here he goes against Us...16:4 Don't you understand by this who creates evil. 

Did God ever mention in Quran I created good and evil like He says I created Day and night, sun and moon etc? Then why attribute it to God?

51:56 "I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve/worship Me."

So created evil creatures and expects us to serve/worship Him.. Evil the way of serving Him then..

Suppose if everyone choosed the good path in this Earth, who is the creator of Evil then?  No creator.. Right?..
So evil is a way / option against good...  No one creates it... But only chooses.. Once chosen, the one who chose it will be the creator of evil...

Tell me what evil God created on  the earth? Destruction is not creation.. Mind it...

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Losing Faith
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2020, 10:49:55 PM »
Salam!
Allah said in various ayats that He created السموات and الارض and whatever is between them. Still you are denying this fact and making شریک in creation. Iblees was the first monotheist who did not prostrate to the one other than Allah although it had Allah's ruh or authority
The word تکتمون indicates that there were more than 3 angels hiding or trying to hide something (thus jinns/kafirs) from Allah. کان من الکافرین and کان من الجن also indicate that iblees was among a few کافر/جن angels. Some (19 maybe) Angels would also be اصحاب النار.
Angels are good generally and humans are generally bad/evil. Allah has promised to fill the hell with Humans and Jinns (whether human or angels).

(Your Lord creates what He wants, chooses what He wills. They do not have the right to choose.) [28:68]

(It is Allah who creates you and what you do.) [37:96]

(The Creator of everything is Allah.) [39:62; 40:62]

Peace!