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Muhammad as the last messenger/rasul?

Started by Rauf, September 19, 2020, 01:14:55 PM

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good logic

Peace Rauf.
Surah Anbya confirms Noah as a Nabi and many others .
But I do not see  for example Hud , Salih or Shuaib confirmed as Nabi in any verses of Qoran, do you? Only as Rasouls:

To `Ãd we sent their brother Hûd. He said, "O my people, worship God; you have no other god beside Him. Would you then observe righteousness?"
وَإِلىٰ عادٍ أَخاهُم هودًا قالَ يٰقَومِ اعبُدُوا اللَّهَ ما لَكُم مِن إِلٰهٍ غَيرُهُ أَفَلا تَتَّقونَ
The leaders who disbelieved among his people said, "We see that you are behaving foolishly, and we think that you are a liar."
قالَ المَلَأُ الَّذينَ كَفَروا مِن قَومِهِ إِنّا لَنَرىٰكَ فى سَفٰهَةٍ وَإِنّا لَنَظُنُّكَ مِنَ الكٰذِبينَ
He said, "O my people, there is no foolishness in me; I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe.
قالَ يٰقَومِ لَيسَ بى سَفٰهَةٌ وَلٰكِنّى رَسولٌ مِن رَبِّ العٰلَمينَ

If you know of any verses that state Hud  or Salih or Shuaib as Nabi please bring them.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
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Rauf

I asked have you read the Quran from 7:65 to 7:94?

There is a summary in the Quran 7:94 about Prophets after Hud, Saleh and Shuaib (peace be upon them) are mentioned. There is a summary about Prophets after detailed informations about Prophets.

Were Idris, Ishaq, Yaqub, Ayyub, Dawud, Sulayman, Alyasa, Zakariyya and Yahya (peace be upon them) all called Rasul in the Quran?

good logic

Peace Rauf.

I have already said to you that all Nabis are messengers, but not all messengers are Nabis.

I have read 7: 64 to 94. there is No verse which clarifies that Hud, Saleh or Shuaib were Nabis as well?

Unless you know any?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
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Rauf

Why do you ask whether Hud, Saleh, and Shuaib (peace be upon them) were explicitly called Nabis in the Quran? I have already told you that every Rasul is a Nabi. Every Rasul received important news (naba) from Allah. The Quran never states that a new Rasul can come.

good logic

Peace Rauf.
Yes, you are saying that every Rasool is Nabi but Qoran does not say that. , it says GOD sends Rasools and Nabis.
 Qoran only says every Nabi is a Rasool as well.
Qoran also says that Beni Adam will receive Rasools across the ages and generations:

7:35:
O children of Adam, when messengers come to you from among you, and recite My revelations to you, those who take heed and lead a righteous life, will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
يٰبَنى ءادَمَ إِمّا يَأتِيَنَّكُم رُسُلٌ مِنكُم يَقُصّونَ عَلَيكُم ءايٰتى فَمَنِ اتَّقىٰ وَأَصلَحَ فَلا خَوفٌ عَلَيهِم وَلا هُم يَحزَنونَ

So a Nabi may bring a revelation, but a Rasool may only clarify the same revelation down the line.
Where did Qoran say there will be no more Rasools after the one who brought Qoran?

Qoran only says that the last Nabi has brought the last revelation. i.e Qoran is the last revelation.
i.e Mohammed was the last Nabi ,but not the last Rasool since Beni Adam continue to live after Mohammed.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28[/url]

Rauf

Why did you translate as "when" and not "if"?

Quran 7:35 doesn't contradict the fact that Prophet Muhammad is The Last Rasul.

Every Rasul received important news (naba) from Allah. That means every Rasul is a Nabi.

good logic

Peace Rauf.

If there is no verse that confirms every Rasool has received a scripture- A nabi-, then it is your opinion only.
That is what I am saying to you.
You mean every Rasool has been given help/inspiration to understand a scripture, that does not mean every Rasool is a Nabi.
GOD bless you.
Peace,
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
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Fusion

Dear GL and Rauf
I just wanted to share my understanding on this topic too. I feel discussions like these are only useful if we stay open to different viewpoints. When everyone just holds on to their opinion no matter what, even when there are valid counterarguments, it kind of stops being helpful. We all learn and grow through open and respectful conversations.

There are several verses in the Quran related to this, and I have tried to summarize my current understanding. Of course, I am open to correction if needed, but this is how I see it for now.

Nabi (Prophet): A nabi is someone who receives divine revelation (prophecy) from Allah. Prophets are often given scriptures, wisdom, and authority to guide their people.

For example, the Quran says: 6:89 "These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and wisdom, and Prophethood...", indicating that a nabi is entrusted with scripture (Book) and wisdom (Hikmah). In short, a nabi is a recipient of God's news/revelation.

Rasul (Messenger): A rasul literally means "one who is sent" with a message or mission. In Quranic usage, a rasul is a messenger appointed by God to convey His message to people. The term rasul emphasizes the mission of delivering guidance. Notably, the Quran uses rasul in a broader sense than nabi. For instance, angels can be called rasul (messengers) of God ; the angel who appeared to Mary introduced himself as "I am only a messenger (rasul) from your Lord to announce to you a pure son" (19:19), showing that rasul can refer to an angelic messenger as well. Even ordinary human envoys are termed rasul in the Quran (e.g. the king's envoy to Joseph in 12:50 is called rasul.

The King then˺ said, "Bring him to me." When the messenger came to him, Joseph said, "Go back to your master and ask him about the case of the women who cut their hands. Surely my Lord has ˹full˺ knowledge of their cunning."
Thus, rasul means any envoy carrying a message.

Now the Overlap:

In the context of divine guidance, most major figures in the Quran are both prophets and messengers as they receive revelation and are sent to convey it. The Quran sometimes explicitly pairs the terms, calling someone "a messenger, a prophet". For example, Moses and Ismael are each described as "kanā rasūlan nabiyyān" i.e "he was a Messenger (rasul) [and] a Prophet (nabi)".
This shows that these individuals fulfilled both roles. Indeed, whenever a prophet conveys God's revelations to others, he is acting as God's messenger.
This is an inclination that every prophet by definition carries God's message to people, thus serving as a messenger; conversely, delivering God's message (being a rasul) requires first receiving it via prophecy, in other words, "to become a Messenger of God, the person must be appointed by God first and that appointment is Prophethood. The person who receives prophecy (revelation) is a Nabi. This means before becoming a rasul of Allah, the person must be a Nabi.

Although all prophets are messengers in a general sense, the Quranic usage suggests not all who are called rasul are nabi. The term rasul can apply to a wider array of God's agents. Quran 22:52 pointedly uses both terms, indicating they are not synonymous: "We did not send before you any messenger (rasul) nor any prophet (nabi), except that when he recited [Our message], Satan interfered..."

By listing messenger and prophet separately, the verse implies a rasul is not always a nabi, though the mission of both is divinely ordained.

Verse 33:40

"Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets (khatam an-nabiyyīn)"
This verse explicitly confers two titles on Muhammad: Messenger of God and Seal of the Prophets. The phrase "Seal of the Prophets" is understood by virtually all readers to mean that he is the final prophet i.e. the line of prophethood has been closed with him.
In Arabic, khatam (seal) conveys completion or finality; thus no new nabi will come after Muhammad.

What 33:40 does not say: Importantly, the verse does not say Muhammad is the "seal of the messengers." It mentions the messenger (rasul) role and then specifically seals the prophets (nabi). This precise wording is at the heart of the debate I think. Therefore, in GL view, Muhammad is the last prophet, but not necessarily the last messenger. Any post-Muhammad messenger would not bring a new scripture or religion (which would require prophethood), but would simply convey or confirm the existing divine message (The Quran).

On the other side, Traditional Islamic interpretation says being the final prophet also means no messenger can come after. Their reasoning is that a "messenger of God" isn't just a motivational speaker i.e it's someone directly commissioned by God with a message. And that divine commissioning requires prophecy (some form of revelation or inspiration from God). Since Muhammad was the final nabi, by definition no one after him can receive a new message from God to deliver.  A rasul who didn't get prophecy from Allah is not Allah's messenger , instead they would be a fake messenger. In other words, any legitimate future rasul Allah (messenger of God) would have to get divine communication, which the Quran says will not happen after Muhammad. Thus, they argue, Muhammad was the last messenger in effect, even if the Quran stops short of saying it in those exact words.

It's worth noting that the Quran describes Muhammad's own mission as universal and definitive, which supports the idea that no successor is needed. Muhammad is addressed as "a messenger to all mankind" (34:28) and the Quran is called a complete, perfected revelation (5:3). Once the final Prophet delivered the final message, the guidance needed for humanity was seen as complete. Therefore, any future "messenger" could only repeat or remind people of what was already conveyed through Muhammad i.e. a role that Islamic scholars already fulfill by spreading the Quran.

Now, let's examine whether the Quran itself gives any indication of messengers coming after Muhammad or if it negates that possibility.

Those who argue for the continuation of messengers (rasuls) often cite Quran 7:35 and similar verses. In 7:35, Allah addresses humanity at large: "O Children of Adam! If there come to you messengers from among yourselves, reciting My verses to you, then whoever becomes mindful of Allah and reforms ' there will be no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve."
Notably, this verse is addressed to the "Children of Adam", a phrase the Quran uses for all humankind generically (appearing in verses that give general guidance to every human).
The wording "if (ever) messengers come to you..." is open-ended – it does not restrict the timeframe. It implies that throughout human history (as long as "Children of Adam" exist), God's messengers may come, and whenever they do, people are expected to heed their message. Unlike verses that speak of past nations, 7:35 does not put this in past tense; it uses a conditional format that could include the present and future.

How to understand 7:35 in context? In Surah Al-Araf, this verse comes after the story of Adam's fall and other advice to the Children of Adam (see 7:26–34). It echoes the promise Allah made when Adam was sent to earth: "Whenever guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance shall not fear or grieve" (2:38). In 7:35, "guidance" is specified as messengers reciting My verses. This can be seen as a general principle of God's interaction with mankind: He will send guidance via messengers, and those who accept it will be saved.

GL's interpretation (Open-ended Principle): assert that 7:35 confirms a continuing principle ; that God could send messengers at any time, even after Muhammad. They point out there is nothing in the verse limiting it to before Muhammad. In fact, since it addresses all "Children of Adam" it would include people living after the Prophet as well.
The verse doesn't say "until a certain point, messengers will come"; it simply gives the formula for whenever they come. Therefore, if Allah chose to send another messenger (not prophet) to guide people using His verses (e.g. calling them back to the Quran), 7:35 would already have told us to consider and not reject such an individual out of hand.

Traditional Islamic interpretation (Completed Cycle): backed by many scholars have opposing view where verses like 7:35 describe the general pattern of past ages, not a promise for the future post-Quran era. They read 7:35 as applying up to and including Muhammad's time. In this reading, by the time the Quran was revealed, that principle had manifested in the line of prophets ending in Muhammad. After him, there is no need for any new messenger, since the Quran is available to all humanity as guidance. Proponents of this view note that Muhammad was sent as a messenger to all peoples (34:28) and "We have not neglected anything in the Book" (6:38), implying that no further divine envoy is necessary to deliver new guidance. Moreover, they argue that if someone claims to be a "messenger" after Muhammad, how would we verify their authenticity? The Quran gives no prophecy of a specific messenger to come later, and with prophethood ended, there is no mechanism for a new messenger to receive new verses to recite. Thus, while 7:35 is general, by sealing prophethood the Quran effectively sealed messengership of any authoritative kind.

Are There Messengers Who Were Not Prophets (and vice versa)?

Examples of Rasul (Messenger) without Nabi: The strongest case of human messengers who might not have been prophets is in 36:13–17. It tells of a town to which God sent a team of messengers: "We sent to them two [messengers], but they rejected them, so We reinforced [them] with a third. They said, 'Indeed, we are messengers to you.'"
These three are called mursalīn (sent ones) by the Quran. They certainly had a divine mission, yet the Quran does not call them nabi. Who were they? The text doesn't name them, but some commentators (not relying on Quran alone) thought they were disciples of Jesus ; essentially missionaries carrying the message of Jesus to another town. If that is true, it perfectly illustrates rasuls who are not independent prophets: they were sent by God's will to preach, but they received their message through Prophet Jesus (a nabi before them). Even without that background, the Quran depicting "messengers" in a group is unusual, since prophets are usually single figures. This suggests these could be envoys under the guidance of a current prophet. Another example is that Allah calls the apostles of Jesus (al-Hawāriyyūn) His supporters but does not call them prophets ; they helped deliver Jesus's message. While the Quran doesn't label the disciples rasul, it is clear they preached the message but did not receive new revelation themselves. Additionally, as mentioned earlier, angels delivering God's word are rasul. The angel Gabriel is referred to as Rūḥanā (Our Spirit) in 19:17 and speaks of himself as a messenger of Allah to Mary. Angels are obviously not prophets (prophethood is a human role), yet they are messengers. These examples show "messenger" has a broader scope than "prophet".

Examples of Nabi (Prophet) without explicit Rasul title: The Quran sometimes uses nabi for figures without detailing a specific message they delivered to a nation. For instance, Idris  is called "a man of truth and a prophet" (19:56) but there is no story of Idris preaching to a people in the Quran. He is not called a messenger. Similarly, other prophets in the Abrahamic line like Ishaq (Isaac) and Yaqub (Jacob) are recognized as prophets (2:136, 6:84), but the Quran does not describe them each coming with a new Sharia or book to a distinct nation ; rather, they upheld the creed of their fathers. They were nabi, guiding their family or tribe with the already revealed message, though the Quran doesn't narrate them as rasul delivering a new proclamation to a populous. This suggests that nabi can refer to someone who receives divine guidance (and is part of the chain of prophecy) even if they are not the primary messenger to a large community with a new scripture.

Dual titles for the major figures: Most major figures such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc. ; function as both prophets and messengers, and the Quraan uses both terms for them. For example, Noah is called a messenger in 26:115, Hud and Salih (prophets to Ad and Thamud) both say "we are messengers" to their people, and Jesus is explicitly called rasul in Quran 61:6. Yet all of them are also acknowledged as prophets in the sense of receiving revelation. Aaron (Harun) is an interesting case: Quran 19:53 وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُۥ مِن رَّحْمَتِنَآ أَخَاهُ هَـٰرُونَ نَبِيًّۭ calls Aaron explicitly a prophet (nabi), and elsewhere Moses asks God to "send Aaron with me" in the mission to Pharaoh. When confronting Pharaoh, Moses and Aaron together say "We are the two messengers of your Lord" (26:16-17). So Aaron, though not the originator of the Torah, acted as a co-messenger with Moses. This reinforces that a messenger of God generally has prophetic status (Aaron was granted prophethood to assist Moses), but one can be a prophet (like Aaron or Isaac) whose role is mainly supporting or continuing another messenger's mission.

Bottom line: Based on the Quran, every divinely sent messenger to a people was at least implicitly a prophet, because they had to receive communication from God. However, not every prophet founded a new religious law or scripture; some followed and reinforced existing messages. The Quran's language does allow that rasul can be a broader category (including angels or possibly lesser envoys), but a rasul Allah to humanity would need the credentials of a nabi. As Quran 2:151 indicates, Allah sends messengers who recite His verses ; implying those verses were revealed to them. Thus, Quranic logic leans toward the idea that a bona fide Messenger of God among humans comes through the channel of prophethood. No wonder the Quran often pairs "messengers and prophets" together when discussing guidance (as in 22:52 or 17:55), showing they are closely linked roles.

In conclusion, when strictly sticking to the Quran's text and its internal logic, we find that Muhammad is the final prophet, and by implication the final messenger bearing a new message from God. The Quran provides no explicit anticipation of any future messenger. Any true messenger to humanity must have divine sanction, which ended with Muhammad's prophethood. Therefore, while one can linguistically distinguish rasul and nabi, in practice the Quran treats them as inseparable in the context of guidance. All prophets delivered messages, and no messengers will come after the last prophet. The duty of carrying God's message forward now falls upon the scripture (the Quran itself as the enduring "Message") and those who believe in it.

Peace.


Best Regards,

good logic

Peace Fusion.
 
Also, according to Traditional Islamic interpretations this Rasul cannot be Muhammed if they claim Muhammed was illiterate:

Now that it is too late, they remember! An enlightening messenger had come to them.*
أَنّىٰ لَهُمُ الذِّكرىٰ وَقَد جاءَهُم رَسولٌ مُبينٌ
But they turned away from him, saying, "Well educated, but crazy!"
ثُمَّ تَوَلَّوا عَنهُ calls وَقالوا مُعَلَّمٌ مَجنونٌ

Of course one can say as a general statement that one does not need messengers if they believe Qoran itself is the ultimate and ever living messenger since its arrival .
 But messengers who come after Muhammed also have a role written in Qoran for them and a specific task  for the trial of generations and clarification of certain clear basics of GOD s religion that have been distorted through other sources.

GOD knows where and when to send messengers not us. .

It does not matter to me what anyone believes , most beliefs need scrutiny including mine  of course.

However , we are asked about GOD s revelations and GOD s messengers to us . The trial includes both sets.
Thank you for your view.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28[/url]

Fusion

Peace,

Just to clarify where I explain my understanding of Quran 44:13–14 is that it refers to Prophet Muhammad. The verses describe a people who were already sent a clear messenger, but they rejected him and said he was taught by someone else and called him mad. That's the same pattern found in other verses where the Quraysh accused Muhammad of being taught by a human and dismissed him as insane.

In a previous reply, I mentioned the traditional position that no messenger can come after Muhammad. That was not because I base my view on traditional scholars, but to show how even within that framework, the logic around finality is centered on the sealing of prophethood. My actual position is Quran-based, and I try to understand everything directly from the Book, even if I occasionally reference other views to show the broader discussion.

I do not agree with the idea that the Prophet was illiterate. The Quran calls him ummi, but that term fits the context of someone not educated in previous scriptures, not someone who couldn't read or write. There's no verse that says he was illiterate. The Book describes him as being taught by God, not by people. So when disbelievers accused him of being muallam, they were trying to dismiss the message by claiming it came from a human source, which is what we see in other places too.

The messenger in these verses had already come. The people had already rejected him. There is no hint that it is about a future messenger. And when the Quran says Muhammad is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets, and that the religion was completed, the message is closed. Any returning to guidance has to come through the Quran itself; not a new rasul.
Best Regards,