Author Topic: Will of the god or will of the man?  (Read 1892 times)

Jafar

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2020, 05:35:55 AM »
Thank you Jafar, your views speak to me. Did you ever have the experience of oneness? The way you express your views it seems that it is coming from a personal experience  :hail

Peace Muqeem

That's a very good question.

Have I ever have experienced oneness.

Apparently both the question and the answer is not as simple as I or should I say we initially thought.

Based on my current understanding, if Jafar has experienced truly oneness then Jafar will not be here. The reason why Jafar is here is because he's still on his way towards oneness.
So the question is similar to kindergarten kid asking his class mate have you obtained your PhD degree?
No insult to the question, because the question is a very good question.

But oneness or unification on much smaller scale might have been experienced by Jafar.
The example of such is this:
Jafar is merely an avatar on this forum, there's another persona behind Jafar who are 'living' on different 'realm'.  But somehow Jafar and this persona think that they're both one, the persona is associating him (or her) self as Jafar as his (or her) manifestation inside the realm of this web forum.

This is not a static definition it could also be possible that Jafar is also associating himself with another different persona. As such now Jafar is a manifestation of two different persona behind him. Jafar and the two persona think that they're one. The two personas have common manifestation on the realm of this webforum as Jafar.

The opposite is also possible, the persona have multiple avatars... besides Jafar ithe persona is also manifesting him or herself as Jerome (for example) and they think that they're one.

Thus this is a matter of "scoping of perspective" about the definition of "I" and "Me" and also "We" and "Us".

Based on my current understanding, true unification or true oneness is a unification with everything a unification with an infinity. Infinity is a very large number isn't it?

How to achieve that?

There are two ways,

A. is to continuously enlarge the definition of "I" to also include other "I" (the you, he, she, it, them), in human language there are other word to describe the collection of "I" it's called "Us" or "We". Continuously enlarging "Us" to also include other "I" until there are no more "I" among the collection of "Them" are left.
The question will be how long will it takes?
It depends on the number of "I" who are among "Them"... the problem here is that the total number of "I" is actually infinite. Thus it will took an infinity to include the infinite number of "I".

The other option is:
B. to instantly just remove the boundary or border that define the "I". The border that differentiate between the "I" and the "Non I" (he, she, it, you, them). Instantly everything is included... but it will also resulted in the total abolishment of the "I" and also the "Non I", he , she, it, you, them. As "I" exist only because the "Non I" exist.

This is perhaps what ancient sages mean when they say: "By becoming nothing you will become everything".
By destroying our own ego we will achieve unification a.k.a oneness with everything.

That is my current understanding, but who knows along the way towards unification I will learn something new and the above understanding will changed or should I say be 'enriched'.



spodacus

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2020, 12:20:59 PM »
Salam muqeem,

I haven't read the responses yet but wanted to add a comment to what you said.  Yes I am in agreement that all paths lead to Allah in the literal sense that after death we return to our Lord. However my humble opinion is that this does not mean that each path is of equal value or recommended. It's clear to me that the Quran advises us to follow a specific set of paths and to avoid other sets of paths. This is directly linked to the amount of spiritual growth each path can afford. The goal for us is not only to return to Allah but to also return with an acceptable amount of growth to the nafs that we were entrusted with. There's a literary metaphor used in the Quran where Allah describes the resurrection as people swarming as butterflies or returning as a locust. To me this speaks to people taking the advise of God and transforming themselves as the butterfly does and returning as the prodigal son or people taking the path of greed, earthly desires, carefreeness and devouring the world as a locust only to return to God no more as a locust. Unlike the butterfly, the locust goes thru no metamorphosis in it's lifecycle. So we return to Allah better or we return to Allah stale. Just my thoughts. Thanks!

Hi, I'm new to the forum, came across free-minds website recently while started learning quran, a lot of things dont make any sense as I'm mostly ignorant of the language of quran, I try to make sense whatever I understand, in the following verse and many others like it, does god is saying He guides those who want guidance or does he saying He guides those whomever He wishes?

قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء إلى صراط مستقيم

the way I made sense of it is: "all directions go toward god but whomever wants a straight path will be guided towards it"

peace

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2020, 07:09:43 AM »
Thanks, "But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom."

does it mean God only is, seperation of self is an illusion?
Salam, dear brother!
This simply means that Allah's will is ever stronger/overwhelming. See 8:30 also for better understanding.
Peace!

Jafar

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2020, 11:22:56 PM »
Quote
does it mean God only is,
seperation of self is an illusion?

Actually yes..   God IS

Separation is merely a temporary illusion.
This entire universe is an illusion.

Just like the universe of this webforum is an illusion.
The separation of "muqeem" an avatar on this forum and the persona who created "muqeem" is an illusion, muqeem the avatar and the persona is always in unity.

Another metaphor for this, is let's take a novel,
The "Lord Of The Rings" by Tolkien

There's the hobbits: Bilbo Baggins, Frodo Baggins, Sam Baggins
The human: Gandalf, Saruman, Aragorn,
The elves: Legolas,
The Dark Forces: Sauron, Orcs, Nazgul

There's conflict, war, somebody murdered somebody etc.. within the novel.

But when asked :
1. Where is Tolkien in the Lord Of The Rings?
Well we can say that 'his manifestation' is on all things within the Lord Of The Rings universe, all hobbits, all elves, all human, all dark forces, all the forest, all the caverns, jungle everything. As all things within the Lord Of The Rings was created from Tolkien's thought.
2. Does Tolkien's created The Dark Forces in Lord of the Rings?
Answer is yes, Sauron, Orcs, Nazgul, Saruman who transformed from white to black are all the product of his thought. So there is no such thing as conflict between Tolkien vs The Dark Forces. If Tolkien's so will, the dark forces can easily be deleted instantly.
3. Why then not Tolkien just removed the Dark Forces?
Answer is how do you find the story of a bunch of hobbits living peacefully within the Shire? No conflicts, no challenges. "Once upon a time there were Hobbits living peacefully in the Shire. The End". Will you be interested to even read the book?
4. In the Lord Of The Rings it's told that Bilbo Baggins authored a book titled "Hobbits" and so does Sauron who authored "Book of Dark Magic", does that mean that those books were actually authored by Tolkien?
Answer is yes since everything within Lord Of The Rings were product of Tolkien's imagination. Thus there is no such thing as a 'conflict' between Tolkien books vs Sauron books.
5. From Tolkien's perspective how does the event within Lord Of The Rings took place?
All the events took place at the same time, Tolkien (or LOTR book reader) can easily turn the pages to focus on certain timeline and jump around the timeline if he / she wishes to.

muqeem

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2020, 03:29:54 PM »
Actually yes..   God IS

Separation is merely a temporary illusion.
This entire universe is an illusion.

Just like the universe of this webforum is an illusion.
The separation of "muqeem" an avatar on this forum and the persona who created "muqeem" is an illusion, muqeem the avatar and the persona is always in unity.

Another metaphor for this, is let's take a novel,
The "Lord Of The Rings" by Tolkien

There's the hobbits: Bilbo Baggins, Frodo Baggins, Sam Baggins
The human: Gandalf, Saruman, Aragorn,
The elves: Legolas,
The Dark Forces: Sauron, Orcs, Nazgul

There's conflict, war, somebody murdered somebody etc.. within the novel.

But when asked :
1. Where is Tolkien in the Lord Of The Rings?
Well we can say that 'his manifestation' is on all things within the Lord Of The Rings universe, all hobbits, all elves, all human, all dark forces, all the forest, all the caverns, jungle everything. As all things within the Lord Of The Rings was created from Tolkien's thought.
2. Does Tolkien's created The Dark Forces in Lord of the Rings?
Answer is yes, Sauron, Orcs, Nazgul, Saruman who transformed from white to black are all the product of his thought. So there is no such thing as conflict between Tolkien vs The Dark Forces. If Tolkien's so will, the dark forces can easily be deleted instantly.
3. Why then not Tolkien just removed the Dark Forces?
Answer is how do you find the story of a bunch of hobbits living peacefully within the Shire? No conflicts, no challenges. "Once upon a time there were Hobbits living peacefully in the Shire. The End". Will you be interested to even read the book?
4. In the Lord Of The Rings it's told that Bilbo Baggins authored a book titled "Hobbits" and so does Sauron who authored "Book of Dark Magic", does that mean that those books were actually authored by Tolkien?
Answer is yes since everything within Lord Of The Rings were product of Tolkien's imagination. Thus there is no such thing as a 'conflict' between Tolkien books vs Sauron books.
5. From Tolkien's perspective how does the event within Lord Of The Rings took place?
All the events took place at the same time, Tolkien (or LOTR book reader) can easily turn the pages to focus on certain timeline and jump around the timeline if he / she wishes to.

This is it!  :handshake:  :hail