Author Topic: Will of the god or will of the man?  (Read 2233 times)

javed1

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2020, 03:57:09 AM »
Peace Jafar
I agree with you about changing myself,removing the ego and choosing the all the 'right' opposites from the list you have compiled.Remove the 'I'.Remove the ego.All this is fine.Yet the moment you say everything is 'One',by definition,God too has to dissolve into that 'oneness',because God cannot even have a "Will",since that would make him "distinct'.So essentially it is not 'Oneness'but 'Nothingness'.Listen to Deepak Chopra and Sadhguru.Essentially if we dissect through their extremely intelligent conversation and word play,they are saying there is no God.They call it by some vague notions like "Energy" and 'Universal Consciousness".
There is No 'One eternal God' left,for that would A dichotomy.
Thanks Jafar,Good Logic and Truity Fruity.Jafar your views are intellectually stimulating always.
Javed

tutti_frutti

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2020, 04:38:13 AM »
salam javed1

my understanding:

for me there is no such thing as a “universal consciousness”

there cannot be an energy that has no will. who then created that energy? why would that “universal consciousness” exist?? the will always comes before “matter”

there is only The God and existence is what He wills it to be

existence is a product of His will

it is like when one says “this is my car” or “this is my house” etc well existence is The God’s. “to be” is His. everything that is and is not is His, and only what He wants can happen.

The God is the only Truth, He IS the Truth

for those you quoted like sandhguru, they say things about death and about existence etc my question to them is ... how do they know? did they receive some divine revelation? a scripture? when they talk about what comes after death... did they die and come back? or about the human having 5 or 7 bodies/souls? what authority do they have to ascertain all this

we have the Quran that is sent to us by The God that is logical and divine

peace :)

Cerberus

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2020, 05:49:24 AM »
It's wiser not to be 'entrapped' in label or merely believing something just because somebody or some book said so.
The same things happened within an umbrella called / labelled "Religion" not all Religion actually a religion.
Which then beg the fundamental question what is religion?

Seek it yourselves, know the essence / characteristics of things and then you will know and not merely believe.

Because this universe seems to be based on contrast.
On everything there's an opposite contrast.
And it's created as such for a purpose.

Separation <-> Unity
Pride <-> Humility
Fear <-> Courage
Hate <-> Love
Rage <-> Calmness
Harming <-> Healing
Dominating <-> Accommodating
Gaining <-> Sharing
Egocentric <-> Empathy
Judging <-> Understanding
Bigotry <-> Tolerance
etc..

Some might be resonated more towards Separation, Pride, Domination, Judging and Bigotry and some might resonated towards the opposite. But that's just the way it is. And everything exist only because the one infinite creator created as such.
In the end all paths will lead to the top, to the one infinite creator.

That's why; seek out your own path, nobody shared the exact same path.
When you're realized that the path that you walked through now is not comfortable for you, then find another path.
Make sure the path that you walked is the path that you're truly resonating with.
At the very least be authentic with yourselves.

Remember that everyone actually have direct connection to the one infinite creator, just ask and you shall receive.
Don't let fear be in the way for you to realize and make use of such privileges.
Whatever path that you walked on, the one infinite creator is always there to guide you all the way.

"The enemy is fear, we think it's hate, but it's fear"
-- Gandhi

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but yourselves can free your own minds, have no fear for atomic energy, cause none of them can stopped the time".
-- Bob Marley: Redemption Song

I question the validity of all of this. It seems more of a wishful appealing thinking rather than logical and critical thinking. This is also typical to liberal religions such as the Unitarian Universalism church.

Why do all path lead to the top ? And why should they ?
And if so, does it include the path of X religion aswell ? then why complain about X religion ? why criticize at all, since all paths will eventually lead to the top ?

Why do you put "Judgement <> Understanding" as opposite to one another ? Did you know that as a result of understanding one discriminates and judges between what is right and what is wrong ? The question is actually whether that judgement is correct or not, it may very well be based on some kind of understanding. Reason above all allows to discriminate between what is rational and not rational...but in general, an individual uses their judgement to carve their own path. But remember you said all path lead to the top ?

What kind of advice is "seek your own path" ? Would it be wrong if someone, by following your advice, ends up in a path of hate, fear and pride, the things you don't speak so highly of ?

Why do you say and I paraphrase, " if a path is not comfortable for you, then find another path." Is comfort a critical index to the validity of a path ? The devil is in the details.

But in general, liberal beliefs are all about "comfort" and coziness, "nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn't hurt anyone", because the purpose is "happiness" and attainment of pleasure, hence why acceptance and "tolerance", and considering judgement as bad as it discriminates. There is no right or wrong (because they refuse to think critically about the matter, and risk finding themselves in discomfort) but instead, what is right is simply what "feels right", like love, tolerance, acceptance and all that cute stuff. and what is wrong is what brings discomfort, pain, etc. i.e what feels wrong. This is simply limited to the realm of feelings and wishful thinking.
Once you step into the realm of honest critical thinking then you risk putting yourself in discomfort, something you and the religion you criticize hate to do.

good logic

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2020, 11:48:24 AM »
Peace  javed1
Let us tackle the issue of GOD from the "justice " angle.
In this case I can only conclude that GOD must be an independent entity . A separate being from all His creation, Why?

For example where do  people who do not believe in GOD and who say crime,wickedness,injustice and racism or homophobia is objectively wrong turn for both guidance and a moral standard? Their own opinions? Human systems/justice ?Maybe evolutionary theory?...

Moral values and duties/responsibilities arise from laws which imply a law giver. Put another way, since people agree that objective moral values and duties exist,  an authority exist  that ensures perfect justice.
The world shows again and again that justice in this life doesn’t always occur
So there must be a  final judgment by the original authority/GOD. Moreover, that judgment must be perfect with no possibility of any resulting injustice. 

Also, to have a perfect judgment, you must have a judge that has all knowledge and knows all the facts of each case. And that judge must be righteous because while a judge can possess all the facts of a case, they could be corrupt. 
   
 The judge must have the ultimate power to implement and enforce justice, with nothing being able to oppose him or loyalties/interference from others .

 To have meaningful ethics and true justice,  there must be life after death where an omnipotent, omniscient, righteous, and holy judge awaits who will bring about final justice for everyone and everything.
Hence GOD must be one and independent from all His creation.
GOD bless you.
Peace
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38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

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Jafar

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2020, 02:16:20 PM »
Why do all path lead to the top ? And why should they ?
And if so, does it include the path of X religion aswell ? then why complain about X religion ? why criticize at all, since all paths will eventually lead to the top ?

Because the infinite creator is all that actually exist..

Yes it include the path of X religion as well..
Or more exactly the path of X individual.
Religion cannot do anything, it's the people who can do things..

Quote
Why do you put "Judgement <> Understanding" as opposite to one another ? Did you know that as a result of understanding one discriminates and judges between what is right and what is wrong ? The question is actually whether that judgement is correct or not, it may very well be based on some kind of understanding. Reason above all allows to discriminate between what is rational and not rational...

This is a limitation in english language, or maybe I choose the wrong word.
It should be Judging vs Understanding.

And right and wrong or good and bad depends on many subjective circumstances and context.
Even 1+1 equal 2 might be wrong if the context base of number is binary, if it's binary 1 + 1 = 10

Quote
What kind of advice is "seek your own path" ? Would it be wrong if someone, by following your advice, ends up in a path of hate, fear and pride, the things you don't speak so highly of ?

I never 'not speak highly' or 'lowerly' of such path.
Path of hate, fear and pride might be correct for someone.

But yes you're correct by saying that the path of hate fear and pride it's not comfortable for me.
I don't enjoy it, it felt not natural for me.
But perhaps it is natural for others..

From my perspective the path of fear can be seen as catalyst, a catalyst to find or seek the opposite.
There are limit of how one can sustain walking the path of fear, until at one time it just snap! grew sick and tired of it and starting to seek for the opposite. The same thing goes with hate, pride, domination, lies etc..

That's why in the end it will end up at the same 'destination'..
The differences will be how long for one to arrived at the destination, depending on the actual path taken for the journey.

Quote
Why do you say and I paraphrase, " if a path is not comfortable for you, then find another path." Is comfort a critical index to the validity of a path ? The devil is in the details.

Again limitation of language or I choose the wrong word.
By 'comfort' here it means 'natural' to the feeling inside of you.

If feel not natural don't be afraid to seek a new path, I have explained the details above..

Quote
But in general, liberal beliefs are all about "comfort" and coziness, "nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn't hurt anyone", because the purpose is "happiness" and attainment of pleasure, hence why acceptance and "tolerance", and considering judgement as bad as it discriminates.

I don't know who do you mean by 'liberal' here, and for the sake of discussion it's better not to label anything as label actually do not mean a thing and can be misleading. The same thing goes for 'stereotyping'.

I've explained what it meant by 'comfort' above, it does not necessarily mean coziness.

Some people feel 'comfort' / 'natural' when they're bullying other people, I however do not.
But actually bullies never find any 'coziness' by bullying if you asked them.

Again judging good and bad is subjective.

Quote
There is no right or wrong (because they refuse to think critically about the matter, and risk finding themselves in discomfort) but instead, what is right is simply what "feels right", like love, tolerance, acceptance and all that cute stuff. and what is wrong is what brings discomfort, pain, etc. i.e what feels wrong. This is simply limited to the realm of feelings and wishful thinking.

I think you're mixing up the judging (good vs bad which is subjective) and the contrast of every concept.
To some all the "cute stuff" is indeed discomfort and to some other all the "cute stuff" is comfort.

But your last sentence is correct, 'feelings' or should I say 'emotion' does matter. If not it's actually what matter.
Machines or AI are able to 'think critically' (a.k.a deductive reasoning), million times better than any human.
But they cannot have "Feelings" and "Emotion", only 'living being' does..

Quote
Once you step into the realm of honest critical thinking then you risk putting yourself in discomfort, something you and the religion you criticize hate to do.

Oh yes I totally understand what you mean, because I've been through that too and definitely I will still experiencing many discomfort in the future. I see that as a compass for my journey.

It's a discomfort to find mistakes within ourselves, once we apply total honesty to our own self.
It's a discomfort to switch orientation or thought processes.
But the triggering of such actions were also caused by discomfort.

It's a discomfort to be in a middle of a crowd who chanted "Dead to the X ethnicity".
It's a discomfort to hear how we have so many enemies that threatening us with destruction and torture, jews, the west, america, the devil and even the God himself.
It's a discomfort to find cursing within a book which I consider to be flawless and holy.
It's a discomfort to hear my honored teacher boasted about how our group status is much higher than others.
It's a discomfort to hear my honored teacher teaches about how the other group will be eternally tortured, just because they're not within our group.
It's a discomfort to see how my own grandma really wanted to kiss a black stone and I helped her with that.
It's a discomfort to hear how explanation from people outside of my group makes more sense to me.
It's a discomfort to remember what I have thought and believed in the past.
And thousands if not millions of other discomforts,
But all of those discomforts need to happened, I see all of those discomforts as my catalyst for change...

But changes can only happened once we found courage to 'fight' away our own fear.

While "religion" is merely a concept, it cannot do any thinking,
Only the people who associate themselves with a religion are capable of such thing.
That's why 'a religion' is dynamic in nature, it depends on the people who are associating themselves with a religion.


Cerberus

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2020, 07:13:22 AM »
Ok let me try to simplify all that you're saying, because you're saying a lot and in doing that you're obfuscating your point.

You're making a moral relativist argument, that because there is no universal way of looking at things, therefore the more appropriate attitude is to be accepting and tolerant etc...It comes convenient with your idea that feelings is what matters. Everyone feels different, and everything is ok, and the cherry on top is that "all paths lead to the top" because of the infinite creator.

All of this aside, quickly look outside and watch people complaining about the lockdowns or even the mask-wearing, those people are all about their feelings, and your moral relativist argument doesn't help either. Feelings are selfish by nature and compulsive. Selfless acts are done thoughtuflly with understanding and intent (it could come with pain and discomfort, but it doesnt matter because feelings are blind and shouldnt dictate anything).

reel

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2020, 09:39:06 AM »
Hi, I'm new to the forum, came across free-minds website recently while started learning quran, a lot of things dont make any sense as I'm mostly ignorant of the language of quran, I try to make sense whatever I understand, in the following verse and many others like it, does god is saying He guides those who want guidance or does he saying He guides those whomever He wishes?

قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء إلى صراط مستقيم

the way I made sense of it is: "all directions go toward god but whomever wants a straight path will be guided towards it"

peace

You can run a test and see this at work. Ask a question to your subconcious mind and say that you want the answer within 24 hours.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2020, 01:42:03 AM »
Hi, I'm new to the forum, came across free-minds website recently while started learning quran, a lot of things dont make any sense as I'm mostly ignorant of the language of quran, I try to make sense whatever I understand, in the following verse and many others like it, does god is saying He guides those who want guidance or does he saying He guides those whomever He wishes?

قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء إلى صراط مستقيم

the way I made sense of it is: "all directions go toward god but whomever wants a straight path will be guided towards it"

peace
Salam!
Your answer is in 76:30.
Peace!

muqeem

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2020, 01:28:59 AM »
Salam!
Your answer is in 76:30.
Peace!

Thanks, "But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom."

does it mean God only is, seperation of self is an illusion?

muqeem

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Re: Will of the god or will of the man?
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2020, 01:31:18 AM »
It's wiser not to be 'entrapped' in label or merely believing something just because somebody or some book said so.
The same things happened within an umbrella called / labelled "Religion" not all Religion actually a religion.
Which then beg the fundamental question what is religion?

Seek it yourselves, know the essence / characteristics of things and then you will know and not merely believe.

Because this universe seems to be based on contrast.
On everything there's an opposite contrast.
And it's created as such for a purpose.

Separation <-> Unity
Pride <-> Humility
Fear <-> Courage
Hate <-> Love
Rage <-> Calmness
Harming <-> Healing
Dominating <-> Accommodating
Gaining <-> Sharing
Egocentric <-> Empathy
Judging <-> Understanding
Bigotry <-> Tolerance
etc..

Some might be resonated more towards Separation, Pride, Domination, Judging and Bigotry and some might resonated towards the opposite. But that's just the way it is. And everything exist only because the one infinite creator created as such.
In the end all paths will lead to the top, to the one infinite creator.

That's why; seek out your own path, nobody shared the exact same path.
When you're realized that the path that you walked through now is not comfortable for you, then find another path.
Make sure the path that you walked is the path that you're truly resonating with.
At the very least be authentic with yourselves.

Remember that everyone actually have direct connection to the one infinite creator, just ask and you shall receive.
Don't let fear be in the way for you to realize and make use of such privileges.
Whatever path that you walked on, the one infinite creator is always there to guide you all the way.

"The enemy is fear, we think it's hate, but it's fear"
-- Gandhi

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but yourselves can free your own minds, have no fear for atomic energy, cause none of them can stopped the time".
-- Bob Marley: Redemption Song

Thank you Jafar, your views speak to me. Did you ever have the experience of oneness? The way you express your views it seems that it is coming from a personal experience  :hail