Author Topic: Homosexuality, wife-beating, and forced conversion  (Read 558 times)

bookish

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Homosexuality, wife-beating, and forced conversion
« on: September 01, 2020, 03:02:28 AM »
I understand that these topics have been discussed before but I'd not come across these articles earlier so I wanted to share them with you here. I don't really know Arabic so your inputs would help if you're a native Arabic speaker. Essentially, I wanna know if the interpretations are forced, or can they be easily made the way the authors have done.

Lot
This article here makes the case that Lot's story was about gangrape and inhospitality, and uses an interesting argument that I haven't come across before.
https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/2018/02/12/the-significance-of-nay-but-in-the-story-of-lot/

This one, on the other hand, refutes such a claim.
https://muslimmatters.org/2016/07/11/can-islam-accommodate-homosexual-acts-quranic-revisionism-and-the-case-of-scott-kugle/

What are your thoughts about them? Which interpretation is closer to the text?

Wife-beating?
[4:34] Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

This article argues against wife-beating.
https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/2019/11/19/the-quran-never-allowed-wife-beating/

Is the above interpretation far off from the actual text or close to it?

Forced conversion?
[9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Is the above verse an example of forced conversion? I understand that salat has a range of meanings but both salat and zakat are things expected from believers so how would you interpret this verse?

Thanks!

good logic

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Re: Homosexuality, wife-beating, and forced conversion
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2020, 08:11:44 AM »
Hi Bookish,how are you?
I used to think all sorts of things about religions that are aggressive and selective towards others.
I used to think that Muslims are really following Qoran and that this book must be evil.
Then I decided to have a look at it myself.

I do not know about you and why you are interested in what Qoran is saying,but I will say this to you:

1- I do not care anymore what others make out of the verses. I have  to check it deeply and thoroughly myself. So far I  have found the problem with the interpretations not Qoran.

2- Since each of us has their own self to save and nobody else is responsible for them, then it matters that each must be satisfied with their own understanding.

3-It is good to ask and talk about issues ,but at the end everything sad needs checking . The most important thing is what do we do with the lessons and message of Qoran.

I will now give you my views,:
Homosexuality exists,people differ in its definition and it is here to stay like all other types of people because of GOD s offer of freedom of choice to all . For me  Qoran addresses all types of people and offers them a way out  including homosexuals. Following GOD s messag (commandments,instructions/lessons...) gives all of us deverse people a chance to live our lives according to GOD s laws and rules. If people do that ,then GOD judges not us.( I have discussed this in one of your old threads)

Wife beating also has been discussed in many threads. For me,if GOD wanted some kind of"wife beating" punishment , GOD would have said with what to beat them with and how to do the beating. Or are we to innovate and fabricate multitudes of ways ourselves?
There are other meanings for "beat" and those who want to choose a physical beating after trying all the other options of the verse are wasting their time and effort. To leave each other ,if it really comes to violence, is the logical answer that makes sense in the verse.

Now we come to 9:5.  I have no idea why people pick one verse and single outan interpretation about a different subject that has nothing to do with the verse?
If one is serious about Qoran, then they should never ignore other verses the make a context!!!
9:5 is taking about an incident during the life of the prophet. A treaty of peace between two parties( same clan/race) .They were fighting each other.

9:!-An ultimatum is herein issued from God and His messenger to the idol worshipers who enter into a treaty with you.
  The idol worshipers were the tribe of the messenger who refused to accept GOD s message and messenger and fought against them and  were the aggressors
A proclamation was put to them.  and a 4 moth peace treaty was agreed.
Then 9:4 says::If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. God loves the righteous.4 says: 
Then  9:5 is in the same context of the subject:
:Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Salat and give the  Zakat you shall let them go. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

i.e If they return to their aggression. There is no forcing of religion here.,the next verse makes it clearer:
9:6: If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of God, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.

Anyway,hope you are doing fine.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Wakas

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All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Jafar

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Re: Homosexuality, wife-beating, and forced conversion
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2020, 06:43:04 PM »
Forced conversion?
[9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Is the above verse an example of forced conversion?

I will only addressed this, but this will explain the others.

"Let there be no compulsion in DIEN, as truth stands out clear from error"
-- 2:256

What is Dien?
Dien = Judgement / Attitude / Opinion towards or about something.

Then:
1. Should we do 'forced conversion' of somebody towards certain identity / religion?
2. Should we send out 'threat' to somebody to adopt certain attitude or opinion?

My answer is NO but definitely some others will say YES.

This lead to the second part, 'truth stands out clear from error'.

Error and falsehood need to exist otherwise truth will NOT stands out.
When everything is truth how can truth stands out?
There will be no contrast, no comparison.

There will be a contrast and conflict in nearly everything, and is up to you to choose which one resonate with you the best or came up with your own judgement and opinion (arabic: Dien) which you think resonate with you the best.
Be confident, formulate your own DIEN, be authentic with yourselves.

And for sure you will find somebody (or some description) which are in contrast to your dien.
Now you at least understand why such contrast need to exist.


Cerberus

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Re: Homosexuality, wife-beating, and forced conversion
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2020, 02:59:00 AM »
Severely manipulated stuff...