Author Topic: There is No Morality without Religion  (Read 2492 times)


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Re: There is No Morality without Religion
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2020, 03:39:41 AM »
if I have my morals and you have yours it doesn't mean there is no morality does it ? you have to be specific. What you mean is that there is no universal morality ? maybe. will see.

Also you are not making any distinction between morality on an individual level or a group level. If it's for an individual, then there is no need for a religion as an authority. The individual can think about what constitutes right or wrong or not think about it, and he could be right or he could be wrong, but it's his authority and his choice.

On a group level, religion works as the authority over the mass, and it serves as a mean to distribute a specific moral guide to a large group of people, and it mostly works; because large group of people are constituted by mostly people who do not think as individuals. The religion can hit right at their base desires and tell them that you will be getting a great REWARD if you do this and that, and you will be receiving a heavy PUNISHMENT for this and that. They don't care about the whys or the logic behind it. They just want to do what they're told to reap the benefit.

Why is reason only good in labs ? Because when you're not biased and you use your reason on an external subject you can reach the truth about that subject. That doesn't make it ineffective in matters outside labs does it ? Personal matters are filled with bias because of the individual's emotional selfish involvement. If in "import matters" such as medicine people have to be very logical and reasoning and without bias in order to be most correct, then why is it in "even more important matters" such as how to live one's life people choose not to be objective and not think rationally about it, and resort to acceptance, wishful thinking etc ? Because of their emotional and selfish involvement etc...what is called satan (personified as some demon whispering)

And by the way, logic is consistent.

At the end....there are philosophies out there (such as stoic philosophy) for individuals who take it upon themselves to think about matters in details, and there are religions out there for large groups to accept and believe in. Both can be a source of morals.

So what you mean to say, and I agree with is: There is no morality on a large scale without an authority such as religion to enforce it.


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Re: There is No Morality without Religion
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2020, 10:11:19 AM »

In the end, religion don't offer an ideal or accurate moral system but neither does atheism, deism, or "God alone". What is respectable about organized religion is the unanimity on moral issues it brings about, which becomes a stepping stone for an harmonious society.

I feel God alone wants us to behave in evolved fashion and that can be made possible only if we take the morals from him.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj


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Re: There is No Morality without Religion
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2020, 11:32:15 PM »
Peace Neptin.

.1-. Quote: "How do you know that Luqman wasn't teaching son from a scripture?"

"We  have endowed with/given Luqman wisdom" can only mean  either from inspiration or  both inspiration and/ scripture. i.e direct to Lukman from GOD"

We know for sure he followed and passed on GOD s advice/instructions according to Qoran. This has nothing to do with organised religion as Lulman was singled out in the verse.

Alright, then. But the bottomline is that what ever morality Lukman received is verifiable by a scripture. And this is the key I see in this. Organized religion as you see are the outcome of scripture. You can't have a scripture without an organization of individuals devoted to observing the scripture.

For instance, the Qur'an penalize adultery with flogging. How is such a penalty enforceable without a community?

2-Quote: "What practical proof is there for this? Any body can claim to be inspired by God."

My proof is simple.. I believe Qoran is a scripture from GOD.  If Qoran says so, then it is true. As for others it depends on what they think scripture is.
What is scripture for you?  Surely if one believes scripture is the word/s of GOD then  GOD does not lie. If they do not ,then I have no  proof for them. That is fine by me.
GOD bless you.

All in all, it seem you admit that the scripture remains the final frame of reference for morality, not personal inspiration. The only problem of course is you do not  acknowledge organized religion as the practical application of scripture. Fair enough
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Re: There is No Morality without Religion
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2020, 11:34:36 PM »
I don't think you're 100% honest and authentic here, it is very much what you see lacking in you or things which you've identify or associate yourself with and how will you provide such lacking.

This is like saying that anyone who relate the relevance of Keto diet is looking to benefit from the diet. Just because I enunciate the essence and relevance of exclusive club doesn't mean I'm looking to acquire something I see lacking in me from such club. Like I said, all I'm doing is relating reality however self serving I might seem.

Even by mentioning an 'exclusive club' you are focusing on what you think is best for 'some' one and not 'every' one.

You were the first to use the term 'exclusive club'. I never thought people with a common view or interest organizing themselves as exclusive any more than I think family reunion or Medical Doctor Associations to be exclusive.

Worked for what purpose?
Perseverance of an 'identity'?

More than that. Building communities and societies, developing civilizations etc.

Test of time?
Ok, Let's talk about time.
1. How many time has there been until to date?
2, Among that time how many time has there been human presence?
3, Among that time how many time has there been religion that, by name, still survive until today?

1. If we mark time since the beginning of this universe, it has been 13.7 billion years.
2. Earliest human remain ever been found, 300,000 years
3. Hinduism, 4000 years

Hinduism so far only being tested over 2.1 * 10^-10 % of the time.

The number hard to digest isn't it?
Let's convert it to human life as reference so it can be easily digestible, let's take 60 years.
If age of the universe is the regular lifespan of time available for an individual human, 60 years.
Then the oldest surviving religion by name (Hinduism) only exist in 0.4 seconds.

You want to take Islam? 1400 years ago.
Then religion and identity of Islam only exist in 0,14 seconds in comparison if it's human's lifetime.
Will you able to recognize something in front of your eye if it appears only in 0.14 seconds?

OK. Here is a pinch test. Compared to organized religions and exclusive clubs, how long have the alternatives lasted? Can you mention even moment in human history and civilization where exclusive club or organized religion didn't predominate. Any moment of "inclusive club", if there is such a term?
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
Flames Of Truth