Emotions, poor arguments, lies, magic...

[Fadiva]

Peace everyone,

I am really upset that some people (maybe a lot) seems to prefer lies to truth ( and call a lie a truth) maybe to preserve some kind of faith. Some can't be aware of it and some refuse to seek in order to not disturb this faith (and we are a lot capable of this...).

Here some examples:

Ghosts, jins, magic: How many traditional muslims prefer a "jin option" for a fact rather to a rational explanation when there is actually one !.
Like fake videos when you clearly see the trick or can explain it rationally. Example: simple magicians on television are said to be assisted by jins or others creatures by some muslims or christains when we can find quite easily the tricks explained (revealed) on others videos, but no...those continue to believe they have the assistance of a jin...it seem better to stay in their fantasies.

Another video: A muslim filming an abandoned appartment with female screams, trying to persuade people that the screams comes from an invisible creature but in the fact you can see a women (the accomplice) in the video  stealthily appearing...how can a believer fabricate such a lie ? was he bored ? Did he need attention ?
And I heard a lot of stories like; " one day a woman came to a river ata night and..." " one night a man came to his basement and..." hearsays which originate from an unknown person and repeated by others and maybe containing modifications. All those stories dealing with jinn, devil or strange creatures but not details...

And some people can experience strange situations like humanoid form appearances and we can find "jins", "angels", "devil" or "aliens"as explanations, it depends on the people's belief. How can they conclude to those without investigating or just comparing what they saw or think they saw to the description of those creatures in the Book for believers (for instance).

I am not saying their is no Jin or "strange" creatures or magic etc...I think that giving a jin or other invisible creatures "explanation" when we don't know is lying because the truth is that we don't know unless we have a proof or a very solid argument.
Before concluding to a jin (or other), one should ask before; what's a jin ? and it can be other options: sleep paralysis, allucination, other...

I have already experienced strange situations but I couldn't conclude it's a jins or its from devil or angels because if I am honest; I don't know what was it, I am not able to explain it it can be several things but if I conclude to a jin, or a ghost, or aliens or a symbolic message I am more likely a liar because I don't know.

Some prefer an explaination to another because it's more comfortable to them (emotionally).
I think we generally prefer comfort to the truth. One can go crazy when someone demystifies his beliefs.

I don't know if I am wrong, but it seems that some people need to cling to those storie to maintain or reinforce their faith.

Black magic:
How many people conclude that they are victims of black magic because they didn't marry or their husband ( I said here husband because I heard or read women claiming about it) wants to divorce, or can't be successful ?

We can find orther reasons:
- behaviours (a woman or man who is authoritarian, mean, liar or other...that scare off a possible suitor)
- physical appearance
- family
-ect...

Lies by omission:

Very bad behaviour to me.
How can a muslim deliberately lie to convice someone to enter his religion or to try to conter argue ? :

Cutting a verse to make it say what he wants, omit the following of the verse or the other verse.
Conter arguing using just one verse or a hadith he chose while the non believer used several verses (and the result is not convincing if we do not turn a blind eye because we can imagine that that person is enable to deal with the other verses brought). If we aren't able to argue because of lack of knowledge we should abstain. And I have seen some answering in an insulting manner (the emotions that take precedence over reason...).
And some muslims who refuse (or can't) to see the the lack of consistency of the argument used.

We are not suppose to lie (without a good reason like when we are under death threat)  or lie to ourselves.

[Cerberus]

There is no correlation between proclaiming oneself to be a muslim or a believer and holding oneself to strict standards that are mostly defined by one's ability to think properly.

[Jafar]

I am really upset that some people (maybe a lot) seems to prefer lies to truth ( and call a lie a truth)

Why are you upset?
Isn't lies one of the greatest teacher of truth?
Isn't by recognizing lies shall lead you to recognize truth?

Everything has it's own role to play.
Appreciate them as they are.

maybe to preserve some kind of faith. Some can't be aware of it and some refuse to seek in order to not disturb this faith (and we are a lot capable of this...).

That's the answer,

I am not saying their is no Jin or "strange" creatures or magic etc...I think that giving a jin or other invisible creatures "explanation" when we don't know is lying because the truth is that we don't know unless we have a proof or a very solid argument.
Before concluding to a jin (or other), one should ask before; what's a jin ? and it can be other options: sleep paralysis, allucination, other...

That's a good approach,and a good question to start, what is a jin?
Have you found the answer to this?

Personal Experience: I realized one of my greatest mistake by pondering back to the basic: what is islam?

And now I'm moving the lever back to the most basic level by pondering: what or who am I? Do I even exist?

I have already experienced strange situations but I couldn't conclude it's a jins or its from devil or angels because if I am honest; I don't know what was it, I am not able to explain it it can be several things but if I conclude to a jin, or a ghost, or aliens or a symbolic message I am more likely a liar because I don't know.

a very good approach, by admitting I don't know is a good start.
And then by asking the question you shall eventually arrived at an answer.

Some prefer an explaination to another because it's more comfortable to them (emotionally).
I think we generally prefer comfort to the truth. One can go crazy when someone demystifies his beliefs.

There you go, you've found another answer to your own question.

I don't know if I am wrong, but it seems that some people need to cling to those storie to maintain or reinforce their faith.

There you go another answer to your own question.
A merely believe requires confirmation from others.
While knowing doesn't requires any.

Don't be afraid to be 'wrong' as through finding many 'wrong' you shall arrived at 'correct'.
That is actually the fundamental approach of scientific method.
Came up with hypothesis, test it, came up with another hypothesis, test it..

Black magic:
How many people conclude that they are victims of black magic because they didn't marry or their husband ( I said here husband because I heard or read women claiming about it) wants to divorce, or can't be successful ?

Should start with the basic then: What is Black Magic?

Lies by omission:

Very bad behaviour to me.
How can a muslim deliberately lie to convice someone to enter his religion or to try to conter argue ? :

Don't judge it as 'bad', but try to understand the 'why'.

Why people lie to convince someone to enter his religion?
Because people believe in his religion, like mentioned above, a believe requires confirmation from others..

Why people lie to counter argue?
Because people identify him/herself to his/her opinion and his/her religion. Thus he/she sees any argumentation proposed against his/her opinion or his/her religion as an 'attack' to his/her own very existence. The argument then are being seen as a 'threat'. And any 'threat' need to be eliminated to ensure one's survival, through any means, including by eliminating the subject who proposed such argument.

We are not suppose to lie (without a good reason like when we are under death threat)  or lie to ourselves.

It's very easy to detect lies coming from other people, compared to lies coming from ourselves.

By detecting lies and falsehood coming from other people, which we can easily detect.
We should continue to tackle the difficult part; we then check whether similar lies and falsehood also exist within our own thoughts.
This is called 'self introspection'.

That is why liars are our greatest teacher to find lies and falsehood within ourselves.
By detecting the lies within ourselves we will then eventually find the truth.
Thus liars are our greatest teachers to eventually find out the truth.

Salam / Peace

[good logic]

There is  always an"elusive" truth running away from us. We are always trying to chase this mirage. Multitudes claim they found it but their lives have not changed for the better. So what is this elusive truth? And what are lies?

The irony is we have a good instinct and a built in mechanism called guilt. If we concentrate on ourselves and listen deep to our warning mechanism we will realise that the truth is inside us shouting at us to get "straight". Do not lie it is saying,do not...all the things that will harm us we pursue ignoring our own instinct.

And the lies will continue, but in reality they only harm those that tell them and those that follow lies and fantasies.

Ignoring the lies and staying well away from them ,if recognised, is one step in the right direction.
Harmless fantasies to those who do not gey involved in them I would say.
GOD bless.
Peace

[Fadiva]

There is no correlation between proclaiming oneself to be a muslim or a believer and holding oneself to strict standards that are mostly defined by one's ability to think properly.

Peace.

Would you mind expanding your thinking ?

[amin]

Yes It Happens, some deliberately cheat and use other's innocence to gain some benefits from them. We all live with  a lot of    imaginations some false some true, our knowledge is the key, mostly we are lured by our lack of knowledge, we tend to seek answers and we receive what we seek or search for.

So being objective in our approach, we can call this as middle path, its a difficult path indeed, the saints here advocated this approach, like Buddha and scores of others. There are poems that call that the God belongs the middle and not the extremes.
In Quran its said the SiratAlmustaqim, the middle way, long back my mother with her innocence will tell that its  a bridge so straight that leads to the heaven, a single step away causes to slip into hell.

[Fadiva]

Why are you upset?
Isn't lies one of the greatest teacher of truth?
Isn't by recognizing lies shall lead you to recognize truth?

Peace
Because people get fooled and once realized the lie ( if realized) they feel betrayed and some of them tend to generalize and accuse the whole community or ethnic group in which is the liar.
Not everyone knows how to separate things.
It's a waste of time and energy.
Deliberate and "useless" lies causes harm. (depends on what we consider as useless, but for example for a group of believer of one religion, they are supposed to know the rules. If they know them clearly and deberately break it for no reason they are hypocrites.  The reduction of cognitive dissonance  has still a bright future ahead of it....)


That's a good approach,and a good question to start, what is a jin?
Have you found the answer to this?

Not something clear to me and not important in my life ( i 'm not looking for them  ).

Personal Experience: I realized one of my greatest mistake by pondering back to the basic: what is islam?

Yes, it's important to go to the basis.

And now I'm moving the lever back to the most basic level by pondering: what or who am I? Do I even exist?

Biologically ? psychically ? both ? Are we defining us with or feelings or more likely with our sens or both ? We need comparisons ( we tend also to define us comparing ourselves to other animals, or with our beliefs).
Do you exist ?
Depends on what you call "existence" or what you believe about it.
Personally I never asked myself if I exist. I exist,



Don't be afraid to be 'wrong' as through finding many 'wrong' you shall arrived at 'correct'.
That is actually the fundamental approach of scientific method.
Came up with hypothesis, test it, came up with another hypothesis, test it..

I know, I agree.

Should start with the basic then: What is Black Magic?

Should be asked for by the people who give black magic as reason to their "misfortune".
Maybe it's more comfortable to "find" (actually not find just assumed) an external reason to question yourself.



Don't judge it as 'bad', but try to understand the 'why'.

I said bad because according to my understanding of what is a muslim, a muslim should act like this. I was talking of a particular group of people not the humankind.


Why people lie to convince someone to enter his religion?
Because people believe in his religion, like mentioned above, a believe requires confirmation from others..

If muslim, no. But it's a human behaviour maybe...

Why people lie to counter argue?
Because people identify him/herself to his/her opinion and his/her religion. Thus he/she sees any argumentation proposed against his/her opinion or his/her religion as an 'attack' to his/her own very existence. The argument then are being seen as a 'threat'. And any 'threat' need to be eliminated to ensure one's survival, through any means, including by eliminating the subject who proposed such argument.

A coward's way...
And finally turns against them. Thanks God there are people who find easily the lies

It's very easy to detect lies coming from other people, compared to lies coming from ourselves.

Depends on how is the person: weak or coward or strong and patient

By detecting lies and falsehood coming from other people, which we can easily detect.
We should continue to tackle the difficult part; we then check whether similar lies and falsehood also exist within our own thoughts.
This is called 'self introspection'.

Right.

That is why liars are our greatest teacher to find lies and falsehood within ourselves.
By detecting the lies within ourselves we will then eventually find the truth.
Thus liars are our greatest teachers to eventually find out the truth.

I disagree. Lies are not teachers but failures can be "teaching".

[Jafar]

Peace
Because people get fooled and once realized the lie ( if realized) they feel betrayed and some of them tend to generalize and accuse the whole community or ethnic group in which is the liar.
Not everyone knows how to separate things.
It's a waste of time and energy.

Then for that people who feel betrayed then generalize and accuse the whole community or ethnic group in which is the liar, are entering another lessons. Lesson related to stereotyping and generalization.

Not something clear to me and not important in my life ( i 'm not looking for them  ).

Well then better not ask the question in the first place..
Because when you ask there will came an answer..

Biologically ? psychically ? both ? Are we defining us with or feelings or more likely with our sens or both ? We need comparisons ( we tend also to define us comparing ourselves to other animals, or with our beliefs).
Do you exist ?
Depends on what you call "existence" or what you believe about it.
Personally I never asked myself if I exist. I exist,

Well one thing for sure, Jafar and Fadiva doesn't really exist, they're just an avatar on this forum aren't they?
A puppet where somebody else is pulling the string.
And who knows the one who pull the string behind Jafar and Fadiva is actually the same person?

It's like watching a movie, we tend to believe that the protagonist and antagonist really exist, and their conflicts are real.
Only to snap out afterwards in realization that both the protagonist and antagonist is actually the product and controlled by the same author.
And both played key role in the construction of the story.
We tend to identify ourselves with the protagonist and hate the antagonist role, but without the antagonist, there will not be any story.

Should start with the basic then: What is Black Magic?
Should be asked for by the people who give black magic as reason to their "misfortune".
Maybe it's more comfortable to "find" (actually not find just assumed) an external reason to question yourself.

Same as above, then if you don't want to know better not ask the question.
Because when you ask, there will be an answer.

I said bad because according to my understanding of what is a muslim, a muslim should act like this. I was talking of a particular group of people not the humankind.

What is a muslim?

If muslim, no. But it's a human behaviour maybe...

It's a human behavior, whatever label they named for themselves doesn't matter, I've saw it on nearly all label of humankind.
When they merely 'believe', they will seek confirmation from others.
When they know, they will not need any confirmation from others.

Will you seek a confirmation from others that 1+1=2?
You will be comfortable even if you are the only person who think that 1+1=2, while everybody else think that 1+1=4 and 1+1=6.
Because you know why 1+1 = 2
You might feel 'sad' about others and how they are being deluded on even simple basic math operation.
But you will not seek confirmation from others about 1+1=2 let alone enforce anyone through threat or fear to also believe that 1+1=2

Believe 1+1 = 2 !! Otherwise you will be tortured for all eternity!!!

A coward's way...
And finally turns against them. Thanks God there are people who find easily the lies

A natural way, because that's how ego works, continuously scanning for threat and try to eliminate them.

Depends on how is the person: weak or coward or strong and patient

It depends on the person's own realization about how his/her own ego works.
But generally speaking; it is easier to find lies from others compared to lies from our own self.

I disagree. Lies are not teachers but failures can be "teaching".

"Let there be no compulsion in opinion, truth stands out clear from error"
-- 2:256

When everything is truth, then how will the truth stands out?
When everything is white, then how will the white stands out?

The opposite is needed to create a contrast, so something (it's opposite) can stand out.

Much thanks to the black, the white stands out in the image below.
Without the black it will be merely all white, and people tend to say that it is 'blank'.

And the more black occupy the canvas, the more stand out the white shall become..

[Cerberus]

Peace.

Would you mind expanding your thinking ?

Some people are born in a belief system, others join it looking for comfort. But it's the quality of one's thoughts that make for good or bad behavior. And really "good" or "bad" behavior simply comes down to logical or illogical, reasonable or unreasonable.

[Fadiva]

Salam Amin,

Yes It Happens, some deliberately cheat and use other's innocence to gain some benefits from them. We all live with  a lot of  imaginations some false some true, our knowledge is the key, mostly we are lured by our lack of knowledge, we tend to seek answers and we receive what we seek or search for.

Yes, but it's a shame to to deliberately cheat when we know we have other solutions.

[Fadiva]

Why are you upset?
Isn't lies one of the greatest teacher of truth?
Isn't by recognizing lies shall lead you to recognize truth?

Peace
Because people get fooled and once realized the lie ( if realized) they feel betrayed and some of them tend to generalize and accuse the whole community or ethnic group in which is the liar.
Not everyone knows how to separate things.
It's a waste of time and energy.
Deliberate and "useless" lies causes harm. (depends on what we consider as useless, but for example for a group of believer of one religion, they are supposed to know the rules. If they know them clearly and deberately break it for no reason they are hypocrites.  The reduction of cognitive dissonance  has still a bright future ahead of it....)


That's a good approach,and a good question to start, what is a jin?
Have you found the answer to this?

Not something clear to me and not important in my life ( i 'm not looking for them  ).

Personal Experience: I realized one of my greatest mistake by pondering back to the basic: what is islam?

Yes, it's important to go to the basis.

And now I'm moving the lever back to the most basic level by pondering: what or who am I? Do I even exist?

Biologically ? psychically ? both ? Are we defining us with or feelings or more likely with our sens or both ? We need comparisons ( we tend also to define us comparing ourselves to other animals, or with our beliefs).
Do you exist ?
Depends on what you call "existence" or what you believe about it.
Personally I never asked myself if I exist. I exist,



Don't be afraid to be 'wrong' as through finding many 'wrong' you shall arrived at 'correct'.
That is actually the fundamental approach of scientific method.
Came up with hypothesis, test it, came up with another hypothesis, test it..

I know, I agree.

Should start with the basic then: What is Black Magic?

Should be asked for by the people who give black magic as a reason to their "misfortune".
Maybe it's more comfortable to "find" (actually not find just assumed) an external reason to question yourself.



Don't judge it as 'bad', but try to understand the 'why'.

I said bad because according to my understanding of what is a muslim, a muslim should  not act like this. I was talking of a particular group of people not the humankind.


Why people lie to convince someone to enter his religion?
Because people believe in his religion, like mentioned above, a believe requires confirmation from others..

If muslim, no. But it's a human behaviour maybe...

Why people lie to counter argue?
Because people identify him/herself to his/her opinion and his/her religion. Thus he/she sees any argumentation proposed against his/her opinion or his/her religion as an 'attack' to his/her own very existence. The argument then are being seen as a 'threat'. And any 'threat' need to be eliminated to ensure one's survival, through any means, including by eliminating the subject who proposed such argument.

A coward's way...
And finally turns against them. Thanks God there are people who find easily the lies

It's very easy to detect lies coming from other people, compared to lies coming from ourselves.

Depends on how is the person: weak or coward or strong and patient

By detecting lies and falsehood coming from other people, which we can easily detect.
We should continue to tackle the difficult part; we then check whether similar lies and falsehood also exist within our own thoughts.
This is called 'self introspection'.

Right.

That is why liars are our greatest teacher to find lies and falsehood within ourselves.
By detecting the lies within ourselves we will then eventually find the truth.
Thus liars are our greatest teachers to eventually find out the truth.

I disagree. Lies are not teachers but failures can be "teaching".

in red: I meant a muslim sholud not act like this ( i have forgotten a word.)

[Fadiva]

Some people are born in a belief system, others join it looking for comfort. But it's the quality of one's thoughts that make for good or bad behavior. And really "good" or "bad" behavior simply comes down to logical or illogical, reasonable or unreasonable.

Yes, they also join it because they think it's true.

I think it's more complicated than that...

And here i was pointing mainly believers who know from the Book(s)( I mean the Book(s) from God) that the way there are acting is "bad" and causes harm.

[spodacus]

Salam Fadiva,

My humble understanding is we should not worry about people getting fooled or misguided by tricksters. No matter what tricks a disbeliever play, they can not fool Allah. And Allah is the one who guides and misguides. Therefore, if a person is already misguided by Allah then that person will fall prey to all the tricksters. If a person is guided, then no matter what the trickster does, they can not be fooled. Allah gives people many chances in their life to come to his path before they are marked as misguided, people are not as innocent as they appear. We do not know what they hold in their soul. So don't focus on people being misguided, that is Allah's business, let us focus on if we OURSELVES are misguided or not, it is very hard to self reflect on ourselves.

Also the one who gets fooled becomes the trickster himself. For example when a parent teaches the child that Jesus is God (when the Quran says that believing such a thing is one of the most worst thing, the world shakes), then the parent has become a trickster to the child. No matter how much the parent love and care for the child, the parent is actually a curse once they teach the child such a wrong thing.

[Jafar]

in red: I meant a muslim sholud not act like this ( i have forgotten a word.)

What is muslim?
A label? a name? an identity? a club that people can join and leave?