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The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven

Started by ayman, July 21, 2020, 01:37:23 AM

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ayman

Peace brother JKhan,

Quote from: jkhan on July 27, 2020, 11:07:21 PMSo you accepted all who submitted to Adam on that great day are Jinn coz command was not only to Iblees but to entire Jinn who were on the status of Malaika.. Do you agree?  You have to.. That's Quran..
So one thing is clear Jinn are another creature who are to obey God...  But out of those jins who are elite with the status of malaika almost faultless except Iblees...  Not all Jinns are malaika...  Malaika are not sent to this earth to be tested,  coz they always obey god and surrender and applaud.. Such no need test while they already obeyed...
Every other jinn and new creation of human disobeyed God... So gave a chance to reform...
Okay since all the malaika are physical creature called jinn, you have to discard the fantasy... Some of them rounding the Arsh of God... Some of those Jinn come to the earth in the form of human as Messengers.. These are not non existing fantasy.. But real creatures... They can talk,  they can feel,  they can do whatever human are capable of doing...
Unfortunately, your fantasy doesn't know everything what Adam knew.. When Adam named what he was taught by God,  fantasy failed... And withdrew...

No I don't agree. The controllers "malaika" is just a status. If I command all employees that serve a company to submit, then this doesn't mean that they are all engineers. There are engineers, accountants, managers, etc. If the engineers refuse to obey then this has nothing to do with the accountants :)

QuoteDo you see how contradictory your comments are... Note comment A with B... You clearly accepted jinn are separate creatures and out of them iblees was different..

They are not contradictory if you understand "malaika" to be a status as per 3:26, which you are not considering.

QuoteBrother when God says He created(khalaq) it means He created a physical tangible creature... Whatever it can be.. be it human or Jin or animal or trees or star or sun or moon or rain or clouds whatever... Human is a full system creature... Not each and every organ of human is separate creature but ONE...  With it.. it is called human.. Not for only hand we call human or only for eye OR pain we call human.. All together is human.. Don't separate it to atoms..
God never created anything which doesn't exist..thats so shame to say so... How can one claim that doesn't exist is a creation.. Be visible OR invisible but if it exists that is a creation..
For you fantasy Dosen't exist but still a creation.. What logic is that brother..?

Do you deny that you have the ability to imagine things? If not then who created that ability and gave it to you?

QuoteCarefully read jinn verses and surrounding verses...
It's a physical creature... Status of malaika was not given in non existing... But they do live.. They have physics.. Don't you get that within Quran?  How can a status be given to non existing..
Note below verse..
46:29 "And [mention, O Muhammad], when We directed to you a few of the jinn, listening to the Qur'an. And when they attended it, they said, "Listen quietly." And when it was concluded, they went back to their people as warners."
In this verse..Are these Jinns seems not existing fantasy to you?
Look at the wording...
Few of the jinn.. Not all it means physical .
They can listen.. Why they listen to QURAN.. They talk... They say to listen with much attention quietly.. When MOHAMED finished reading they left to their men and women to warn them with what they heard.. ... So they carry a message to a community.. Herald.. All these signs are of a physical creature other than human...
Are these fantasy? Mohammed even didn't know until God told so... So no connection with those who attended and Muhammad.. It's not Mohamed's fantasy..
Mohammed was the messenger to human of that society.. And who are these Jinns taking the message and going to their own people to spread without even knowing to MOHAMED. .?

Please see my explanation to sister Houriya above.

QuoteHow do you call just coz jinn are created by fire it is non existing? 
Fire is a tangible object.. Out of it if anything is created then it is a physical creature...
Still you are adamant.. God created every living thing with water.. Trees animal birds human jinn.. All with water... So jinn also a living creature that's incontrovertible coz Malika are jinn... And they do exist..
Again I repeat.. God says we created well before jinn by fire and later human by clay... It's more than enough evidence that both are creatures... But God says every living thing is created by water... Note carefully pls.. In the same verse had God stated in this manner "we created before Jinn by fire and human by water" then we can all comprehend that there is a difference.. Coz in other verses God says every living creature was created by water.. So we can differentiate why God said jinn created by fire while every living thing created by water.. Then you can think may be jinn is not a living thing.. But that's not the wording..

Your ability to imagine things is existing and the brainwaves associated with the imagination are existing. This doesn't mean that when you imagine unicorns or dragons that they will be existing.

The imagination is the humans' creative energy and it is a non living creature but it exists. The products of your imagination don't exist in reality but they do exist in a hidden dimension. Thus your fantasies will be exposed on the day of the account (40:16) and everyone will see them (50:21-23).

QuoteIblees's (Jinn) only intention was to divert those who follow God.. Reason is God misguided him.. First of all accept that.. God sent iblees astray that iblees accepted.. That arrogance and the boasting of being higher level creature being created by fire made iblees to request for respite until the day of ressurection... Why?  It is coz he wants all to fall in his trap...  Did we human requested a respite?  No..  Another misled creature did.. Of course we have to overcome iblees and his gang.. But it doesn't mean they are non existing fantasies.. To overcome God sent guidance and guides whom He wills..
Imagination is part and parcel of system.. Without imagination nothing works... To understand the right and wrong imagination play the role.. But making the jinn as imagination and fantasy is completely and manifestly against the teaching of Quran..

Isn't arrogance the product of the fantasy?

As you said, imagination is part of the human system and without it that system doesn't work. What do you see the role of the imagination in understanding right/truth and wrong/falsehood? If we control our imagination and it submits to us then doesn't this make us more right/truthful? If on the other hand if it controls us then doesn't this make us more wrong/false?

QuoteBut quran is very clear and no doubt...
Brother it is not my imagination or fantasy to go the extreme heaven and listen secretly to what those elite do talk... It is not my fantasy to get chased by fire..  And it is not my fantasy to call it is well gaurded by powerful.. .. That's why they are a creature called mean Jinn trying to listen to other elite jinn..

All human inventions and technology to explore the universe are a result of the imagination.

QuoteI would like to add this verse as well..
2:30. And when the god said to the controllers: "I am making in the earth a leader". They said: "Do you make in it that who corrupts in it and sheds blood while we exalt with your praise and sanctify for you?" He said: "I know what you don't know.
This was a discourse between malaika and God well before the creation of Human...  We don't know with how many malaika God commented this particular dialogue..  Lets hope all of them...  That include iblees as well... What their concern was that "were they not enough as creature abd why need human?  And they are free of trouble making as well and fully obedient....  So these Jinns in the elite state of malaika are fantasy? Nothing but real... Try to grasp it...

The controllers can see the future. However, the future is not one dimensional so there are many possible futures. Iblees was still a controller at the time so he also saw the future from his point of view. The god knows what the controllers do not know. The controllers are wrong just like they were when they killed the boy in (18:74). They were wrong even though they knew the future (18:80). Moses was right and this is why we are the leaders of the earth not the controllers.

QuoteAnyway.. I know people can be trapped with wrong understanding of Quran.. Sometimes it takes time to come to right understanding or perhaps die with wrong understanding... God guides and explains Quran's meaning.. So be patient and research..
May God guide us to right path..

The best way to test one own understanding is to come up with a better interpretation than what is being presented. Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians :) ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves. Look inside you. We all know what drives us to invent lies and do wrong. It is our imagination.

Peace,

Ayman
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Houriya

Peace Ayman

Quote from: ayman on July 28, 2020, 11:37:53 AM
Peace Houriya,
Do you agree that the great reading has allegorical passages?

Agree

QuoteDo you agree that allegorical passages speak to the imagination?

There is a word in Arabic to say imaginary: khayal, the verb yukhayyalu appears only once in the story of Moses with the magicians.


QuoteIf your answer is YES to both then this passage describes a group of humans listening with their fantasies to allegorical passages.

For you a group of Jinn were listening means a group of humans listening with their fantasies ?

I do not agree

Quotehumans and their imaginations are tied together.

Yes, it's normal the human being is endowed with all the capacities to reason, invent and imagine.

hearts, eyes, ears are not allegories in 7:179.

7:179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

I agree we can see without really seeing, listen without hearing when our mind is elsewhere / unaware, and read the reading without understanding it when the heart is veiled and our senses are sealed.
The veil here is an allegory same for they are like hoofed animals.

A deaf mute sees with his eyes and understands with the heart, ditto for the blind, he hears with his ears and understands with the heart.
Understanding is linked to the heart.

Peace

tutti_frutti

salan ayman

you say " Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians :) ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves."

no one said that jinn are ghosts or red men with forks or reptilians etc or that angels have white robes and halos etc ... all we are saying is that  jinn are creatures created by The God and definately not human fantasies (i do not even see the logic in "fantasies" lol) ...

it's quite obvious throughout the Quran that jinn are a separate creature ... and my understanding is that jinn and angels are same creation, but jinn disbelieved whilst angels believed in The God (perhaps i am wrong)

you say "The best way to test one own understanding is to come up with a better interpretation than what is being presented."

the point is not to develop interpretations just to be different and think that what is already presented must be wrong ...
it is very incorrect to think that mainstream is necessarily wrong just because hadith and sunnah are upheld whilst those who uphold Quran only are necessarily right ...

i think the Quran is literal ... and when examples are made, we are explicitly told that they are examples .. but everything is the truth and literal ... i believe no allegory or examples unless stated they are examples or allegories

Except whom your Lord has given mercy, and for that He created them. But the word of your Lord is to be fulfilled that, "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and men all together." (surah 11, verse 119)

.. imagination being burned in hell? hein lol ?
and btw hell is physical and it has been described to us in the Quran ... there is no allegory or metaphor

anyways brother ayman jinn are true separate creatures ... and humans who do not submit to The God, invent lies about The God, do not obey The God, do not pray or provide charity etc etc actually took the jinn for allies (that is what is meant by shirk) and on day of judgement humans and jinns will mutually disown each other and start cursing each other ... there is no fantasy here

peace

Houriya

A complement to my last message :

22:46 Have they not roamed the earth and had hearts with which to
comprehend and ears with which to hear? No, it is not the sight
which is blind, but it is the hearts that are in the chests that are
blind.

tutti_frutti

salam

regarding the jinn and angels to be of same creation, there is a verse that makes me actually think perhaps no (if anyone can help)

i forgot the verse number but it was when The God tells us He asks the angels if humans took them as allies to which the angels reply no humans took the jinn as allies

does that separate the creations into angels and jinn rather than angels being jinn that were given control or jinn being not achieving rank of angels?

also, why is it thought that "malaika" just means being given control and not a creation?? what makes anyone think that?

yes The God asked the angels to prostrate and iblis refused so i understand iblis was an angel and then fell to being a jinn, but how does the relation go?

jinn are fallen angels? or angels are jinn who were given control so the creation is jinn? or are jinn and angels different creations?

thank uuu

peace

imrankhawaja

Brother ayman,

Whats about the personal experience of someone?

Example in my case many years ago i met a person who claimed to have jinn who tell him things and first time he saw me and told me things what really shocked me like, my name, the purpose of my visit, even he tell a thing what really amaze me i was with two of my aunts who were sisters to eachother and also their kids married with eachother and person ask from my aunts whats ur relation to eachother and they said, we are sisters. He laughed and said you have another relation and they both get shocked too.

What i saw as a first hand witness i cant deny how you will see at those events?

jkhan

Quote from: ayman on July 28, 2020, 12:23:27 PM
Peace brother JKhan,

No I don't agree. The controllers "malaika" is just a status. If I command all employees that serve a company to submit, then this doesn't mean that they are all engineers. There are engineers, accountants, managers, etc. If the engineers refuse to obey then this has nothing to do with the accountants :)

They are not contradictory if you understand "malaika" to be a status as per 3:26, which you are not considering.

Do you deny that you have the ability to imagine things? If not then who created that ability and gave it to you?

Please see my explanation to sister Houriya above.

Your ability to imagine things is existing and the brainwaves associated with the imagination are existing. This doesn't mean that when you imagine unicorns or dragons that they will be existing.

The imagination is the humans' creative energy and it is a non living creature but it exists. The products of your imagination don't exist in reality but they do exist in a hidden dimension. Thus your fantasies will be exposed on the day of the account (40:16) and everyone will see them (50:21-23).

Isn't arrogance the product of the fantasy?

As you said, imagination is part of the human system and without it that system doesn't work. What do you see the role of the imagination in understanding right/truth and wrong/falsehood? If we control our imagination and it submits to us then doesn't this make us more right/truthful? If on the other hand if it controls us then doesn't this make us more wrong/false?

All human inventions and technology to explore the universe are a result of the imagination.

The controllers can see the future. However, the future is not one dimensional so there are many possible futures. Iblees was still a controller at the time so he also saw the future from his point of view. The god knows what the controllers do not know. The controllers are wrong just like they were when they killed the boy in (18:74). They were wrong even though they knew the future (18:80). Moses was right and this is why we are the leaders of the earth not the controllers.

The best way to test one own understanding is to come up with a better interpretation than what is being presented. Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians :) ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves. Look inside you. We all know what drives us to invent lies and do wrong. It is our imagination.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman brother..

Unfortunately you are not sticking with Quran... But you respond something else... I don't need fancy answers of engineers bla bla.. Even they engineers or doctors or lawyers, remember order was to employees.. Order was to malaika... Iblees was one of them... If iblees accepted he was created by fire... By what all those who were with iblees were created? Use logic..

Anyhow I would like to tell these two things with verse..

15:39-40 Iblis said, "Lord, because you have caused me to go astray, I shall make earthly things attractive to (people) and mislead all of them, except Your sincere servants"
15:42 "and you(iblees) have no authority over My servants except the erring ones who follow you."

No fantasy dude.. Just look carefully the verses... Iblees or even no power can change the sincere servants of God... Iblees accepted it.. Sincere servants of God will always follow what God ordered to follow... They don't care of the deception of iblees and his gang.. They know what is deception and what is truth... They won't let it near them.. They know how be away from it...
They don't have any connection with fantasy as per you or iblees or his decendants..

Second point is sincere followers of God are guided.. Remember God guides whom He wills and God misguides whom He wills... So God does it...  Not even iblees... So for sure not fantasy... God knows the soul and let it go astray as per their choice so job of iblees made easy...
Even sincere followers have imagination apart from what they do for their salvation.. That's general life.. I always imagine how to cook a wonderful dish when away from family... It comes really well...
Dude... Note this also... When God sealed the hearts of disbelievers what iblees need to do... Did iblees seal the hearts?  Satan doesn't know anything what human thinks and human imagination and human fantasy ... They only keep watching at us... And react and whisper according to what they see.. So human get deceived coz of whisper by not using his own imagination ... Imagination or knowledge and wisdom all from God and not from iblees...

Why God says before reading Quran to seek refuge in God from Satan.. Coz reacts by watching not by what we imagine ... God only knows what we think and what is in our hearts which propels for imagination?  Iblees has no such capacity ...


Let us die with guidance

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jkhan

Quote from: ayman on July 28, 2020, 11:37:53 AM

Do you agree that the great reading has allegorical passages?

Do you agree that allegorical passages speak to the imagination
?


Peace,

Ayman

Question is not directed me but let me give my response as well...

I never agree that there is allegorical passages in Quran unless and otherwise manifestly stated it is an allegory... Otherwise before every allegory god doesn't need to state allegory... What is stated as allegory is allegory others manifest..


Allegorical passages not speaking to the imagination... What nonsense that is... Allegorical passages speaking to the truth... Allegory is presented based on truth.. To ponder on that allegory and think of reality...

Take any allegory.. Are they imagination to anyone's taste.. No.. They are reality in its own... It is there in reality... Nothing to imagine.. but just to compare ...
Let us die with guidance

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jkhan

Quote from: imrankhawaja on July 28, 2020, 04:00:51 PM
Brother ayman,

Whats about the personal experience of someone?

Example in my case many years ago i met a person who claimed to have jinn who tell him things and first time he saw me and told me things what really shocked me like, my name, the purpose of my visit, even he tell a thing what really amaze me i was with two of my aunts who were sisters to eachother and also their kids married with eachother and person ask from my aunts whats ur relation to eachother and they said, we are sisters. He laughed and said you have another relation and they both get shocked too.

What i saw as a first hand witness i cant deny how you will see at those events?

That's a good story... I think what say is true story... Coz.. Long time back One of our staff lost her valuable diamond studded gold neclace on her way to a wedding.. She was so upset and keep telling to everyone.. It seems so valuable.. But one of the friends told there is a person in a remote village who is good at finding the lost.. But she said.. They will only take our money.. But she is sure she has lost it while entering to wedding reception...
Somehow she went to that person hoping he would find her necklace.. This person is famous calling Jinnwasam..
She has gone to him.. Not told anything.. But this person told you lost your necklace... She asked where is it?..  He told you have not lost.. It's near your courtyard.. She found it in the same place..

How he knows... This person is using Men of Jinn for his assistance.. That's what people say..
Let us die with guidance

[url="https://discord.gg/3NSZH3hxy7"]https://discord.gg/3NSZH3hxy7[/url]
[url="https://www.youtube.com/@purposefullivingg"]https://www.youtube.com/@purposefullivingg[/url]

amin


"How he knows... This person is using Men of Jinn for his assistance.. That's what people say.. "

most people really looking for miracles and Jinns so they could see and get assistance from them.
In your case I think the real Jinn could be the friend assisting.:)

long back people believed these Jinn and ghost stories for their unsolvable issues, now people give reasons for most but yet I see belief plays are positive role for many who could not find reasons.