Author Topic: Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism  (Read 515 times)

Neptin

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Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism
« on: July 13, 2020, 07:21:57 AM »
Once upon a time people rejected hadith and the general Muslim community began to label them Qur'anists. Over time, the name stuck with them, and much of them began to identify with the label.

But there were among them those who who did not like to identify as "Qur'anists" or other variation of this label such as "Quran alone Muslims." They argue that the Qur'an's message is God alone, not Qur'an alone, and that they identify with anyone who believe in God alone, Quranist or non-Quranist, Muslim or non-Muslim.

This is not a bad outlook. I need not to comment on how valuable it is in granting non-Quranists and non-Muslims the benefit of doubt. But the problem arises when it is now employed as a bulwark against any attempt at Qur'anists organizing as a distinct group.

The 'God aloners' and anti-religionists insist that such a move to better organize Qur'anists into religious community is at best unnecessary and at worst divisive.

They'll often call against forming sects and call for inclusivity. And of course they cite a number of verses to support their stance.

The assumption of the God aloners or the anti-religionists is that, if only we could lay aside our religious differences and unite under the banner of God, alone, then we could birth a better world.

It seem intuitive but it is false. In such case, you could as well ask the people to lay aside God, after all retaining God in the equation excludes atheists and agnostics, which ironically is contrary to the "inclusivity" mantra.

But even if we decide to ignore the atheists/agnostics, the umbrella of God alone is insufficient to unite and bond people from all opposing and mutually exclusive faiths. As, with or without religion people differ on socio-cultural and political issues, and religion is in part an avenue for those who agree on certain issues.

What happens when religious communities are abolished to build an all encompassing inclusive God alone community? Well, think of it as the outcome of separating the Church from the State.

People will dispute on how to operate such a community, and they'll segregate into social organizations and political parties that are representative of their personal views. These organizations and parties are simply sects - the very sects that the Qur'an supposedly forewarns.   

The God aloners propose a community built upon love, tolerance, peace and knowledge, but what they forget is that people have vastly contrasting understanding of these values. I know it might sound like an argument for moral relativism, but it's just the reality of humanity.

In order for any community to be founded upon the so called human values, these values ought to be defined in theory and application, something that religion accomplishes with scripture and traditions - which the God aloners and anti-relgionists seek to downplay.

If human values are the utmost concern of God aloners, then they should endorse move by Qur'anists to organize themselves as a formal group outside the internet, after all, the Qur'anist ultimate goal is build a community that embodies these values through the observing the Qur'an.

Now, let's address inclusivity.

The anti-religionists or God aloners often talk of inclusivity and discourage Qur'anists from organizing themselves into a distinct and more cohesive community like the sunnites or shiites. The idea of excluding people based on religious difference seem abhorrent to them.

But what do Qur'anist stand to gain from this mindset? The sunnites and shiites, and the non-Muslims don't even acknowledge Qur'anist existence. Or if they do, they mostly regard the Qur'anist with distrust or scorn.

Remember the common sayings about "strength in numbers", "united we stand and divided we fall". These highlight everything wrong with the God aloners, the anti-religionist/sectarian.

Humans have historically been divided by views - religious, social, cultural or political. Groups that organized and defined themselves far succeeded in passing down their their views or basically their side of the story, than groups who remained isolated, unorganized and individualist.

So today, all religious groups, the sunnites, the shiites, the ahmadiyas, the catholics, Jehovah witness etc, they all organize themselves into communities that not only share their outlook, but also serve to protect and support them.

On the flip side, the Qur'anists are barely organized. This is bad enough, but then you have "God aloners", anti-religionists in their midst further dissuading any serious attempt by Qur'anists to organize.

This is improper. What would've been proper of the "God aloners or anti-religionists" would be for them to also venture into sunnite or shiite media and foster the inclusivity and individualist mindset among the people. But they don't.

And thus, by fostering this mindset only among Qur'anites, they're condemning the Qur'anites of the 21st century to the same fate as the Qur'anites of the 7th century - gradual and ultimate fading to obscurity in favor of the contemporary religious groups.

Peace
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Re: Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2020, 09:47:20 AM »
Peace Neptin.

I will attempt to answer the following, quote:

"It seem intuitive but it is false. In such case, you could as well ask the people to lay aside God, after all retaining God in the equation excludes atheists and agnostics, which ironically is contrary to the "inclusivity" mantra."

On what ahthority does anyone takes the lead to unite or divide people?

Only if one is placed  on a leader podium ,do they claim authority to lead.If one follows GOD Alone, then the authority is GOD and GOD will be the biggest and most important factor
So,who are we  asking to lead this group of "Qoranists" that will supposedly unite a community?

When one first questioned the religions, they did it for their own findings/journey.  Then, each person individually follows their journey not with the aim of leadership/belonging/...to a certain group,but with the main aim of finding their"truth" about what this religion of GOD is.

If the ideal position of "GOD Alone" is that GOD Alone is the leader,then GOD Alone is the only authority.i.e GOD Alone unites His subjects .
Look at the precedents of Moses , Jesus, Mohammed,..GOD initiated and completed their mission. GOD Alone gave them the authority to do the job..
Is GOD not aware of all the problems humanity are facing?
This generation s case, the movements/battle grounds/ideas...are fought with the help of the "Dabba"-Internet-.

Who knows what develops in the future?
Wait, we too are waiting. The trust of GOD is paramount and a must.

I see my job for the moment as "still on my journey ,working on me ,consolidating my relationship ,knowledge and search and seeking GOD s help on this jouney.
I have complete confidence that GOD has a plan for all the generations..
Why the rush, especially if one is not ready?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Neptin

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Re: Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2020, 05:09:31 AM »
Peace Neptin.

I will attempt to answer the following, quote:

"It seem intuitive but it is false. In such case, you could as well ask the people to lay aside God, after all retaining God in the equation excludes atheists and agnostics, which ironically is contrary to the "inclusivity" mantra."

On what ahthority does anyone takes the lead to unite or divide people?

It is not so much as one person taking the lead to unite or divide as it is people on a common ground converging and working together on and off the internet for common interest - Qur'anists in this case.

Quote
When one first questioned the religions, they did it for their own findings/journey.  Then, each person individually follows their journey not with the aim of leadership/belonging/...to a certain group, but with the main aim of finding their"truth" about what this religion of GOD is.

Granted that this true, but realize that the eternal salvation is not the sole desire of people in religion. Relating with a community that share one's view is part of it. No man is an island, and people naturally wish to meet others that share their disposition on such essential subject.

Which is why we have online communities - forums or subreddit for Quranists.   

Quote
If the ideal position of "GOD Alone" is that GOD Alone is the leader,then GOD Alone is the only authority.i.e GOD Alone unites His subjects.

Look at the precedents of Moses , Jesus, Mohammed,..GOD initiated and completed their mission. GOD Alone gave them the authority to do the job..
Is GOD not aware of all the problems humanity are facing?
This generation s case, the movements/battle grounds/ideas...are fought with the help of the "Dabba"-Internet-.

Of course, spreading the message to more people is a welcomed part of building a community, but that's beside the point. The most sought after benefit of a community is the companionship, support and protection it offers the individual.
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Re: Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2020, 05:46:49 AM »
This should clear the difference between seeking a religion of GOD and sicial need/interaction, quote:

"The most sought after benefit of a community is the companionship, support and protection it offers the individual."

Of course the human instinct is to mix religion up and monopolise it as part of the social /group responsibility. When in fact GOD clealy states that each individual is accountable for his/her own salvation.

So are we to seek a religion because of our social need for a community or to grow/prepare our own soul for the hereafter?

At the end of the day, the normand view point of the majority is not as  it seems:

The majority who believe in GOD/belong to a religious community are on the wrong track according to Qoran. They are taking on other gods/authority beside GOD Alone under the guise/pretence of following GOD s religion.

Sometimeswhat we think is harming us ends up benefitting us.
GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

good logic

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Re: Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2020, 06:19:00 AM »
Here is what Qoran says about "religion":of GOD Alone:
Say, "I have been commanded to follow/serve God, devoting the religion absolutely to Him alone.
قُل إِنّى أُمِرتُ أَن أَعبُدَ اللَّهَ مُخلِصًا لَهُ الدّينَ
"And I was commanded to be the utmost submitter."
وَأُمِرتُ لِأَن أَكونَ أَوَّلَ المُسلِمينَ
Say, "I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of a great day."
قُل إِنّى أَخافُ إِن عَصَيتُ رَبّى عَذابَ يَومٍ عَظيمٍ
Say, "God is the only One I follow/serve, devoting my religion absolutely to Him alone.
قُلِ اللَّهَ أَعبُدُ مُخلِصًا لَهُ دينى
"Therefore, follow/serve whatever you wish besides Him." Say, "The real losers are those who lose their souls, and their families, on the Day of Resurrection." Most certainly, this is the real loss.
فَاعبُدوا ما شِئتُم مِن دونِهِ قُل إِنَّ الخٰسِرينَ الَّذينَ خَسِروا أَنفُسَهُم وَأَهليهِم يَومَ القِيٰمَةِ أَلا ذٰلِكَ هُوَ الخُسرانُ المُبينُ
...
As for those who discard the service/following of all idols, and devote themselves totally to God alone, they have deserved happiness. Give good news to My servants.
وَالَّذينَ اجتَنَبُوا الطّٰغوتَ أَن يَعبُدوها وَأَنابوا إِلَى اللَّهِ لَهُمُ البُشرىٰ فَبَشِّر عِبادِ
Say, "I have been commanded to worship God, devoting the religion absolutely to Him alone.
قُل إِنّى أُمِرتُ أَن أَعبُدَ اللَّهَ مُخلِصًا لَهُ الدّينَ
"And I was commanded to be the utmost submitter."
وَأُمِرتُ لِأَن أَكونَ أَوَّلَ المُسلِمينَ
Say, "I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of a great day."
قُل إِنّى أَخافُ إِن عَصَيتُ رَبّى عَذابَ يَومٍ عَظيمٍ
Say, "God is the only One I worship, devoting my religion absolutely to Him alone.
قُلِ اللَّهَ أَعبُدُ مُخلِصًا لَهُ دينى
"Therefore, worship whatever you wish besides Him." Say, "The real losers are those who lose their souls, and their families, on the Day of Resurrection." Most certainly, this is the real loss.
فَاعبُدوا ما شِئتُم مِن دونِهِ قُل إِنَّ الخٰسِرينَ الَّذينَ خَسِروا أَنفُسَهُم وَأَهليهِم يَومَ القِيٰمَةِ أَلا ذٰلِكَ هُوَ الخُسرانُ المُبينُ
They will have masses of fire on top of them, and under them. God thus alerts His servants: O My servants, you shall reverence Me.
لَهُم مِن فَوقِهِم ظُلَلٌ مِنَ النّارِ وَمِن تَحتِهِم ظُلَلٌ ذٰلِكَ يُخَوِّفُ اللَّهُ بِهِ عِبادَهُ يٰعِبادِ فَاتَّقونِ
As for those who discard the worship of all idols, and devote themselves totally to God alone, they have deserved happiness. Give good news to My servants.
وَالَّذينَ اجتَنَبُوا الطّٰغوتَ أَن يَعبُدوها وَأَنابوا إِلَى اللَّهِ لَهُمُ البُشرىٰ فَبَشِّر عِبادِ
They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom God has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
الَّذينَ يَستَمِعونَ القَولَ فَيَتَّبِعونَ أَحسَنَهُ أُولٰئِكَ الَّذينَ هَدىٰهُمُ اللَّهُ وَأُولٰئِكَ هُم أُولُوا الأَلبٰبِ
They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom God has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
الَّذينَ يَستَمِعونَ القَولَ فَيَتَّبِعونَ أَحسَنَهُ أُولٰئِكَ الَّذينَ هَدىٰهُمُ اللَّهُ وَأُولٰئِكَ هُم أُولُوا الأَلبٰبِ

And here is the accountability:

We have cited for the people every kind of example in this Quran, that they may take heed.
وَلَقَد ضَرَبنا لِلنّاسِ فى هٰذَا القُرءانِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ لَعَلَّهُم يَتَذَكَّرونَ
An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous.
قُرءانًا عَرَبِيًّا غَيرَ ذى عِوَجٍ لَعَلَّهُم يَتَّقونَ
God cites the example of a man who deals with disputing partners (men s religions), compared to a man who deals with only one consistent source (Quran). Are they the same? Praise be to God; most of them do not know.
ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا رَجُلًا فيهِ شُرَكاءُ مُتَشٰكِسونَ وَرَجُلًا سَلَمًا لِرَجُلٍ هَل يَستَوِيانِ مَثَلًا الحَمدُ لِلَّهِ بَل أَكثَرُهُم لا يَعلَمونَ

You (Messenger) will surely die, just like they will die.
إِنَّكَ مَيِّتٌ وَإِنَّهُم مَيِّتونَ
On the Day of Resurrection, before your Lord, you people will feud with one another.
ثُمَّ إِنَّكُم يَومَ القِيٰمَةِ عِندَ رَبِّكُم تَختَصِمونَ
Who is more evil than one who attributes lies to God, while disbelieving in the truth that has come to him? Is Hell not a just requital for the disbelievers?
فَمَن أَظلَمُ مِمَّن كَذَبَ عَلَى اللَّهِ وَكَذَّبَ بِالصِّدقِ إِذ جاءَهُ أَلَيسَ فى جَهَنَّمَ مَثوًى لِلكٰفِرينَ
As for those who promote the truth, and believe therein, they are the righteous.
وَالَّذى جاءَ بِالصِّدقِ وَصَدَّقَ بِهِ أُولٰئِكَ هُمُ المُتَّقونَ

At the end ,this is the aim:
Say, "O my people, do your best (with your religion0 and I will do my best (with my religion); you will surely find out.
قُل يٰقَومِ اعمَلوا عَلىٰ مَكانَتِكُم إِنّى عٰمِلٌ فَسَوفَ تَعلَمونَ
GOD bless.
Peace
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Neptin

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Re: Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2020, 08:13:38 AM »
This should clear the difference between seeking a religion of GOD and sicial need/interaction, quote:

"The most sought after benefit of a community is the companionship, support and protection it offers the individual."

Of course the human instinct is to mix religion up and monopolise it as part of the social /group responsibility. When in fact GOD clealy states that each individual is accountable for his/her own salvation.

So are we to seek a religion because of our social need for a community or to grow/prepare our own soul for the hereafter?

At the end of the day, the normand view point of the majority is not as  it seems:

The majority who believe in GOD/belong to a religious community are on the wrong track according to Qoran. They are taking on other gods/authority beside GOD Alone under the guise/pretence of following GOD s religion.

Sometimeswhat we think is harming us ends up benefitting us.
GOD bless.
Peace.

This is unbelievable.

Free-minds.org/forum is an online community of Qur'anists. And don't you see that your daily visit to this forum is stark demonstration of the value of a community? Do you frequent sunnites, catholics or deist forums this much?

Even if you don't care for a community, Qur'an speaks of congregational salat, hajj and several other doctrines that cannot be established without a community.

And, No. We can't all just join sunnites in observing these doctrines, given our differences in interpretation. So, done.
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Re: Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2020, 03:47:53 PM »
Peace Neptin.

I am not here looking for a religion or a community. I am here and on other forums those who "let me" to talk /discuss/share views with members amicably without any expectation or agenda. And I have been refused or deleted by many others like Sunnis, Christians...etc. I would gladly join any forums including those mentioned here,quote:

"Free-minds.org/forum is an online community of Qur'anists. And don't you see that your daily visit to this forum is stark demonstration of the value of a community? Do you frequent sunnites, catholics or deist forums this much?"

When one finds/believes with certainty Qoran, they find GOD Alone. They will find that they already belong to the one and only community of believers that includes all  those who love GOD Alone the most and strive to follow the straight path of being peaceful, respectful helpful ,humble, caring and trying their best in their life with all their fellow humans as best as they can.

Of course we may. fall short at times ,but with GOD s help and the habit of GOD s awareness / GOD conscious in our mind we soldier on.

The struggle against ourselves is evidence that we need GOD more than we need a community. Religion is a special and a specific relationship with GOD first and foremost.
 Community is important, but religion -A relationship with GOD- is more important and independent of the community.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Jafar

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Re: Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2020, 06:15:30 PM »
Well, the ultimate reality is actually God alone exist.

I mean literally God alone exist.
One will came into such realization once he/she/it has realized his/her/it's own non-existence.

It's of course a 'far away' state to reach.
In metaphor of today's education level, the above is PhD level material, while most people are still on kindergarten. Learning the basic stuff about the basic reality within this universe only, while there are trillions of other universes or 'realm of reality'.

It's not that kindergarten level is 'bad', it's just that's one of the phase that everyone (or everything) need to go through and eventually, in time they will graduate and move forward step by step. From kindergarten the next level is elementary school and so on..

That's why the best place to start is to asking and pondering "Who or what am I?".

Next, the title of this thread is contain some truth in it, the statement is more towards:
"Any effort for inclusivity will 'harm' any effort of exclusivity, limited identification or border drawing".

or we can also say:
"Any effort for larger scoped identification will 'harm' any effort of smaller scoped identification".

Thus ultimately:
"Any effort for de-identification will 'harm' any effort of identification".


Nationalism, racism, religionism will 'harm' individualism.
Humanism will 'harm' nationalism, racism, religionism.
Universalism will 'harm' humanism.
Multi universalism will 'harm' universalism.
And so on..

But such is the natural process of anything.
Gradual and ultimate fading to obscurity is the natural process of anything.

From your own individual level identity (or physical body existence), group identity up to things which are much larger in scale such as culture, tradition, language, human species, this planet, this solar system, this galaxy and this universe with it's trillions of galaxies.

Again to understand this concept one can start by pondering on his/her/it's own individuality in this current lifetime.
Have you realized that even you are actually gradually fading to obscurity?

Which then you will be repeatedly faced to ponder the question "Who or what am I?" actually.



Sarah

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Re: Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2020, 07:37:38 PM »
@Jafar,

Do you believe there are other universes such parallel universes where different versions of us exist i.e. if you are a engineer in this universe for instance, another version of you may be a scientist in the other? Or universes where the laws of physics do not apply and therefore magic would exist in those universes? Do you believe when we go to sleep, the places our souls travel to are real places or could potentially become real?

Just curious lol because that would be cool if those places are real in some part of existence.
😃👀✋

Neptin

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Re: Why Anti-Religion and Inclusivity Dogma Harms Qur'anism
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2020, 10:20:15 PM »
Peace Neptin.

I am not here looking for a religion or a community. I am here and on other forums those who "let me" to talk /discuss/share views with members amicably without any expectation or agenda.

Salaam.

Without a community, you can't talk or share views. Discussing and sharing views on particular subject is another benefit offered by community. And though, you may say you're not looking for a community, you're of course here utilizing this community.

Quote
without any expectation or agenda

Everyone on this forum has expectation or agenda, whether it is to learn more, meet people like them or teach something.

Quote
And I have been refused or deleted by many others like Sunnis, Christians...etc. I would gladly join any forums including those mentioned here.

All of us here on free-minds forum would gladly join sunnites or catholic online communities if they'll let us share our views.
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
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