Author Topic: Verses 2.143- 145  (Read 1819 times)

Fadiva

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Verses 2.143- 145
« on: July 08, 2020, 02:22:13 PM »
Salam,

How do you understand those verses ?
 ( I quoted sahih international translation, I checked other translations, and found the same meanings ( more or less) and took them into consideration)
2.143
Sahih International: And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

Did Allah change the qiblah ( direction ?) ?

2.144
Sahih International: We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

And chose a qiblah tnat pleased the messenger ?

2.145
Sahih International: And if you brought to those who were given the Scripture every sign, they would not follow your qiblah. Nor will you be a follower of their qiblah. Nor would they be followers of one another's qiblah. So if you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, indeed, you would then be among the wrongdoers.

2.146
Sahih International: Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it]

Those who have been given the scripture knew the truth refused to follow Muhammad's qiblah and have several qiblah.
So they knew the truth from their Book and refused to follow the messenger's qiblah ( that has changed (?)) and some of them concealed the truth.
If  we consider that the qiblah has changed ( understood this after reading several translations into French), this is different from what they have in their Book ( and they knew the truth from it)... I am quite confused 


There is one Qiblah that everyone should follow, and it is a physical direction here (understanding).

Wakas

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2020, 01:33:49 AM »
peace,

Good question, but it is quite rare to encounter a Quran-based explanation of these verses. I attempted one here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Article as PDF
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Layth

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2020, 02:14:33 AM »
Salam Fadiva,

Here is how I read this topic:

1. Qibla is oriented by God towards Jerusalem (station of Abraham)

2:125 And it was so, that We have made the House to be a model for the people and a place of safety. And you shall take the station of Abram as an orientation for the allegiance. And We made a pledge to Abram and Ishmael: “You shall purify My House for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating.”

2. Qibla is Shifted away from Jerusalem - as a test to distinguish the faithful.

2:142 The foolish from among the people will say: “What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?” Say: “To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.”

3. Mohammed is uncomfortable, so God gives him a new Qibla (the restricted Temple - Mecca)

2:144 We see the shifting of your face in the heaven; We will set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: “You shall set your face towards the restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set your faces towards it.” Those who have been given the Book know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

4. Qibla should have shifted back to Jerusalem after Mohammed's death (2:144 is specific to Mohammed, without him, 2:125 would dominate).

`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Fadiva

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2020, 03:37:58 PM »
Salam,


Wakas,
Thanks.
I have only read the 7 first pages of your article, I hope to be able to comment after reading it entirely.
(I had also noticed the use of him/it in verse 146 'know him/it as they know their own sons" wondering what was it about)

Layth,

"2. Qibla is Shifted away from Jerusalem - as a test to distinguish the faithful."
Ok, but how can people  who have the Book of God trust a man that shows them another qiblah ? (unless it is mentioned in this Book).

"4. Qibla should have shifted back to Jerusalem after Mohammed's death (2:144 is specific to Mohammed, without him, 2:125 would dominate)."

Are you sure of this ? Any clue ?

Someone

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2020, 06:37:49 PM »
Peace Fadiva,

Please see below post from hafeez kazi about al-masjid al-haram, You may check the complete thread here:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7710.msg13732#msg13732


Quote
They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months, "Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allah is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allah, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever." 2:217

We shall translate the verse and shall remove the word (men) in brackets from the translation

Yasalon Ka An Ash Shahr Al Haram       they ask thee concerning the prohibited months
Qitaal Fe Hi               fighting in it
Qul Qitaal Fe Hi Kaber         say fighting in it is great (transgression)
Wa Sadd An Sabeel Allah         and to keep away from the path of Allah
Wa Kufr Bi Hi               and disbelieve in it (way of Allah)
Wa Al Masjid Al Haram         and the Masjid Al Haram
Wa Ikhraj Ahl Hi              and drive out its followers
Min Hu Akbar Inda Allah         from it is greatest (transgression) near Allah
Wa Al Fitnah Akbar Min Al Qatl      and seduction is greater than the killing

According to the translation it means TO KEEP AWAY from THE WAY OF ALLAH DISBELIEVING in the WAY OF ALLAH and MASJID AL HARAM and driving out its followers FROM IT (way of Allah and Masjid Al Haram) is the greatest transgression.

If the above translation is correct then it becomes difficult to understand what is disbelief in the physical MASJID AL HARAM, which was not there when this verse was revealed?

 
'INNA 'ALLADHENA KAFARO WA- YAS.UDDON cAN SABEL 'ALLAAH WA- AL- MASJID AL- H.ARAAM 'ALLADHE JAcALNAA -HU LI- AN- NAAS SAWAA' AL- cAAKIF FE -HI WA- AL- BAADI WA- MAN YURID FE -HI BI- ILH.AAD BI- Z.ULM NUDHIQ -HU MIN cADHAAB 'ALEM 22:25
 
Verily! Those who disbelieve and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) which We have made (open) to (all) men, the dweller in it and the visitor from the country are equal there [as regards its sanctity and pilgrimage (Hajj and 'Umrah)]. And whoever inclines to evil actions therein or to do wrong (i.e. practise polytheism and leave Islamic Monotheism), him We shall cause to taste a painful torment. 22:25


....             

Inna Alladhena Kafaro           
Verily Those who disbelieve

Wa Yasuddon An Sabeel Allah         
And Keep away from the Way of Allah

Wa Al Masjid Al Haram         
And The Masjid Al Haram

Alladhe Jaalna Hu Li An Naas         
Which we have appointed for the people

Sawaa Al Aakif Fe Hi           
Equal are the dedicated in it

Wa Al Badi           
And the perished

Wa Man Yurid Fe Hi Bi Ilhad         
And whoever seeks in it with infidelity   

Bi Zulm               
with oppression   

Nuzhiq Hu Min Adhaab Alem         
We shall taste him of Our painful punishment

The Way of Allah and the Masjid Al Haram is appointed for MANKIND (not exclusively to the believers or Muslims) those who are dedicated in it and those who have perished in it are equal.

If the above translation is correct then how it is possible to remain dedicated in the Masjid Al Haram and how it is possible for anyone perish in it.

Again Allah is saying that His Way and the Masjid Al Haram was appointed for the mankind, but when this verse was revealed the Masjid Al Haram was not there, then how it is possible to disbelieve in anything which do not exist.

Since these are the words of Allah then it is truth and the Masjid Al Haram did exist, but how?

QAD NARAA TAQALLUB WAJH -KA FE AS- SAMAA' FA- LA- NUWALLIYANNA -KA QIBLAH TARD.AA -HAA FA- WALLI WAJH -KA SHAT.R AL- MASJID AL- H.ARAAM WA- H.AYTHU-MAA KUNTUM FA- WALLO WUJOH -KUM SHAT.R -HU WA- 'INNA 'ALLADHENA 'OTO AL- KITAAB LA- YAcLAMON 'ANNA -HU AL- H.AQQ MIN RABB -HIM WA- MAA 'ALLAAH BI- GHAAFIL cAN MAA YAcMALON 2:144

Verily! We have seen the turning of your face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid- al-Haram And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces in that direction. Certainly, the people who were given the Scriptures know well that, it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do. 2:144

To those whom We gave the Book know it as they know their sons and verily a party among you indeed hides the truth and they know it. 2:146

The Masjid Al Haram did not come into existence after Mecca was captured but it was there before it and from the time of prophet Moses.

The people of the Book knew that Masjid Al Haram is the truth from their Lord and they knew as they know their sons and therefore prophet Moses and prophet Jesus also knew it.

If Masjid Al Haram is physical then there is nothing in it to be disbelieved. It is also not a truth that can be hidden because a known truth is either in the heart or in the Books and the Masjid Al Haram (in their language) was mentioned in their Books and a party among the prophets was knowingly hiding the truth. During the period of our prophet Jews and Christians were scattered in many parts of the world and therefore it was not possible that the people of the Book knew the physical Masjid as they know their sons.

If Masjid Al Haram is the direction of the prayers and if it is the truth from the Lord then remember neither the people of Moses nor the people of Jesus ever prayed facing Masjid Al Haram. Prophet Moses and prophet Jesus never visited the Masjid Al Haram nor the House of Allah located in Mecca.

THE QUESTIONS:

Why the Masjid Al Haram and Bait Al Haram were abandoned after prophet Abraham?

Why prophet Moses and Jesus neglected it?

Why both prophets did not pray facing the Masjid Al Haram or the Bait Al Haram?

Why Allah did not order both prophets to pray facing Masjid Al Haram or Kaaba?

Why Allah did not order both prophets to visit His House (Bait Al Haram)?

amin

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2020, 10:22:17 PM »
Qiblas represent God's signs, rather than physical places, so those we think significant like a birth place of prophet, or even a temple built by a prophet, and each represents God's signs or even God Himself. As even today some sects of people believe prophets to be God's son, wife, or God himself to be in different avatars etc. So there exists different temples/sacred/pilgrimage places and those are their Qiblas.

so I think a Qibla is one represent God's sign.


2.143
Sahih International: And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

So different Qiblas  are there for different prophets and their remembrance used by their followers.

2.144
Sahih International: We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

Mohammed as a pure monotheist not in agreement with those other sects, turning his face toward the heaven/sky for his prayers, so the verse talks about the change of Qibla to Masjid Al Haram, Should be a sacred temple, in a way it represents the Sacredness of God(The Truth) where the pilgrims go for Hajj with pure body and mind seeking blessings.

2:142 The foolish from among the people will say: “What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?” Say: “To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.”

so in a way  no specific places, no specific direction, no specific sign are more important as everything belongs to the God.

My view,  Masjid Al Harram is our state of taking God to be more sacred/supreme than everything.

Wakas

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2020, 05:43:41 AM »
peace Layth, all,

There are multiple issues with your understanding.

As I'm sure you are aware:
there is no mention of Jerusalem in The Quran
al masjid al haram and Abraham are NEVER mentioned together.



1. Qibla is oriented by God towards Jerusalem (station of Abraham)

2:125 ...as an orientation for the allegiance.

Problematic Arabic. I have been told by member uq that: "musallah" in 2:125 means "time/place of SLW" according to the Arabic grammar".


Quote
2:125 And We made a pledge to Abram and Ishmael....

You will note the pledge was with no-one else.

According to you are Jerusalem and "Bakk'a" the same or what... ? [3:96] And is Jerusalem in a valley? [14:37]

Quote
2. Qibla is Shifted away from Jerusalem - as a test to distinguish the faithful.

Contradicts the Arabic of 2:143

And as such We have made you a balanced community so that you will be witnesses over the people, and the messenger will be a witness over you. And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels. And indeed it was certainly a great (thing/test) except for those whom God guided; And not was God to let go waste your belief. Indeed, God is over the people Fully-Kind and Merciful.

i.e. the qiblah they were on was the difficult one/test. The shift is an easing of the situation, it will please the messenger etc.


Quote
4. Qibla should have shifted back to Jerusalem after Mohammed's death (2:144 is specific to Mohammed, without him, 2:125 would dominate).

That seems like Quran takes a contradictory position or is the source of the confusion? Quran is clear:
2:140 Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs were all Jewish or Nazarene? Say: "Are you more knowledgeable or is God?" Who is more wicked than one who conceals a testimony with him from God? God is not unaware of what you do.
2:141 That was a community that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they used to do.

If your view is:
qiblah = jerusalem then mecca and it should have returned to jerusalem

After the qiblah change the messenger is explicitly warned in 2:145
"...And surely if thou were to follow their desires from after what came to thou of the knowledge, indeed thou would then surely be among the wrongdoers..."

Their desire would obviously be for the messenger to follow their qiblah which I assume was Jeruslam according to you.


There are other issues also.

The various understandings of these verses can be run through the checklist provided in the article. Bro Ayman's and hk's view also has various issues.
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Layth

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2020, 08:31:12 AM »
Salam Fadiva,

Quote
"2. Qibla is Shifted away from Jerusalem - as a test to distinguish the faithful."
Ok, but how can people  who have the Book of God trust a man that shows them another qiblah ? (unless it is mentioned in this Book).

The Book was still being revealed at this time in stages, so there is no way for any follower of the Prophet to have the same holistic view that we have today. Even the Prophet himself was at some point trying to second guess what the Quran would tell him (see 75:16). The faith of the early believers needed to be far more intense than the later believers.

Quote
"4. Qibla should have shifted back to Jerusalem after Mohammed's death (2:144 is specific to Mohammed, without him, 2:125 would dominate)."
Are you sure of this ? Any clue ?

I am sure based on the logic and flow of the commands. Otherwise, we would all be stuck with the 'trial qibla' until the Day of Judgement (which makes no sense as it had served its purpose).
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Layth

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2020, 09:35:24 AM »
Salam Wakas,

Quote
As I'm sure you are aware:
there is no mention of Jerusalem in The Quran
al masjid al haram and Abraham are NEVER mentioned together.

Not so. Jerusalem is Becca. The ancient name can be found in the Bible (Pslams 84) where pilgrims would go through the valley of Becca to stand before God at Mt. Zion.

On the Masjid Haram and Abraham - I never linked them in my post, so not sure where you got that from.

Quote
Problematic Arabic. I have been told by member uq that: "musallah" in 2:125 means "time/place of SLW" according to the Arabic grammar".

Mussalla only occurs one time in the Quran in 2:125. Therefore, the argument that it means time/place cannot hold water as, a) the two concepts are independent (time & place), and b) there is no Arabic reference to make the argument for its meaning. It is the context of 2:125 that determines its meanings.

Quote
According to you are Jerusalem and "Bakk'a" the same or what... ? [3:96] And is Jerusalem in a valley? [14:37]

Yes, and yes. Jerusalem is an area of valleys, where people entering the city would come through on these valley paths.



Quote
2. Qibla is Shifted away from Jerusalem - as a test to distinguish the faithful.

Contradicts the Arabic of 2:143

And as such We have made you a balanced community so that you will be witnesses over the people, and the messenger will be a witness over you. And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels. And indeed it was certainly a great (thing/test) except for those whom God guided; And not was God to let go waste your belief. Indeed, God is over the people Fully-Kind and Merciful.

i.e. the qiblah they were on was the difficult one/test. The shift is an easing of the situation, it will please the messenger etc.

Not so. You skipped 2:142 which speaks of a change 'to come'. The people were behaving in a certain way (no stress or burden there), then there is a prediction that this way will change to test the people and that they will be made fun of, then there is a follow-up with the prophet that he is uncomfortable and he is given a more pleasing direction.


`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Wakas

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Re: Verses 2.143- 145
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2020, 02:41:08 AM »
peace Layth,

Jerusalem is not in Quran. AFAIK it is speculation what it refers to in Psalms (weeping or a place etc). I assume your view is Jerusalem is NEAR these valleys so it fits.


This is what UQ said:
“musallaa” is of the form “mufa33al” which is the passive participle derived from Form II (fa33ala).
There are two meanings to “sallaa”: 1. “to pray, or, to perform salaah”, and 2. “to give blessings.”
Now, neither of these two meanings can admit the form “musallaa” as a passive participle because the first is intransitive and the second doesn’t take a direct object.
However, both these meanings do admit the form “musallaa” as a “noun of time or place”, which would give them the meanings of: 1. “the time or place of salaah”, and 2. “the time or place of giving/invoking blessings”.



It is clear to me you have mistaken the qiblah change sequence (it's in the perfect tense). As mentioned in my article M.Asad also has ~your view:

Quote
Before some options are discussed, it should be mentioned Muhammad Asad has a slightly different take on these verses, as he does not regard the prophet as being commanded to face Jerusalem, then later commanded otherwise (see his translation and notes on quranix.net). He does not believe in abrogation (see here). Unusually, he says the "great test" in 2:143 was restoring the "prayer direction" from Jerusalem to the cuboid called Kaabah NOT from the cuboid to Jerusalem as is commonly interpreted. Traditional Islamic history tells us that the Arabs revered the cuboid and Muhammad and the believers faced it whilst in Mecca, thus one would think it would have been harder to face away from it, than return to it. Furthermore, his view would imply that the messenger was "pleased" for the believers to undergo a "great test" - which I consider unlikely. Lastly, the flow of the verses does not seem to fit his take on it. He seems to hold this understanding as a consequence of rejecting abrogation.


Quote from: Layth
Not so. You skipped 2:142 which speaks of a change 'to come'. The people were behaving in a certain way (no stress or burden there), then there is a prediction that this way will change to test the people and that they will be made fun of, then there is a follow-up with the prophet that he is uncomfortable and he is given a more pleasing direction.

Parts in red are not in the Arabic.

So your view is this new testing/difficult change is more pleasing to the messenger?
It's more pleasing to the messenger to shift away from what his revered forefathers Abraham/etc did to face a pagan shrine (according to Traditional Islamic history)?
He is uncomfortable doing what his forefathers apparently did (i.e. facing Jerusalem), and is more pleased to do what they never did?(despite being told repeatedly in Quran to follow Abraham's creed etc)?
When Quran gives us the reasons for the change (or what the change will result in) e.g. "so that not will be for the people against you debate" you think switching from what they/Jews? did to something else will result in less/no debate/argument?
When it says "so that I may complete my Favour upon you" it actually means temporarily then we're meant to switch back to Jerusalem? Complete V temporary.
When it says "so that you may be guided" it actually means temporarily guided then we're meant to switch back to Jerusalem?

Also, you never answered my last point.


Sorry bro, but as it stands, I do not see how your view holds.


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org