Author Topic: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?  (Read 1853 times)

The Sardar

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Salam/Peace dear siblings. I came across a claim of a "logical contradiction" against God. This person is technically criticizing Time and Free Will against God (if i said it right)

https://www.foundalis.com/rlg/time-god.htm

Could anyone please give a response here? I don't know who could help me out on this issue so i am hoping someone can give a good logical response on this.

 

good logic

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2020, 09:04:45 AM »
Can you do a small summary of what he is saying?
Is he saying the mind is material? Or the mind cannot exist in an immaterial world?

Then, where has he  defined and explained and showed the "mind"?
What about the hypotheseis/ Does it make sense?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Wakas

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2020, 01:36:42 PM »
peace,

With regards to the 1st point: the key argument is "A time-less God means, above all, a non-cognitive entity."

Definition: cognition
the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses.

If God is All-Knowing thus does not acquire knowledge/understanding makes God a "non-cognitive entity."


With regards to the 2nd point: the underlying assumption is that having knowledge about someone, to the extent that your knowledge is so complete that you know what they will choose means you forced them to do it, doesn't make sense to me. For example, if on Mondays the school canteen menu offers the option of fish and chips and you know your friend so well that you know they will order the fish and chips because you know what they're like, they love fish and chips, they always order it on mondays etc. When they do order it does that mean you forced them to order it?
Now some might say it was a guess and you never knew it for certain, but what if you were all-Knowing. When you have complete knowledge it's no longer a guess.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

nimnimak_11

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 11:09:06 AM »
If Wakas' summary is accurate, then regarding point 1 the following can be said:

God Is not timeless. God Encompasses all things (including time...that's why if you pray to God for a sign, you will possibly better see/understand the truth that God Knew when you would pray for a sign, and organised everything in advance to correspond with that time your prayed for a sign such that you would know God Is Omnipresent...encompassing all time and beings in relation to you and in relation to everyone else. God Coordinates Perfectly because God/Existence truly Is Perfect).

We don't know what it's like to be Omnipresent. We don't know what it's like to encompass all time and space. These are all unknowns to us. They are not know absurdities to us. So we cannot say that it is impossible for an Omnipresent being to be cognitive in the same way that we can say it is impossible for a triangle to be round.

A cognitive Omnipresent being is not absurd, HOWEVER, a being that has nothing to do with time being cognitive, is absurd. It is not the case that God has nothing to do with time. To have nothing to do with time is to be non-existent. A non-existent being cannot be cognitive.

A round triangle is absurd. An Omnipresent being being Cognitive/Self-Aware is not absurd.

Regarding the second point, so what if God Knows what you're going to choose before you choose to do it? You still choose.

It's not just that. God Chooses/Wills that you chose x. But obviously, it's still also what you chose. If you did not choose x then it cannot be said that God Chose/Willed that you choose x. God Could also Choose/Will that you do something without you choosing to do it. If you find your hand tapping yourself on the back against your will, then that's God Willing/Choosing that you be tapped on your back by your own hand. This is not the same as you choosing to tap yourself on your back.

It's absurd to say because G knew I would choose x before I even chose it, I never actually chose x.

Jafar

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2021, 11:54:08 PM »
Q: Dear God, do you exist in time, or outside of it?
A: Both and if you ask further on which 'time layer' the answer is in all time layers including your time layer.

Q: Dear God, do you know what I am about to ask you now?
A: Yes, I don't experience time only like you do although I do also experience time like you do and more over I'm also exist in you! You're a part of me, every piece of creation is a part of me, no matter how you define it's border between something and something else, between someone and someone else as there's actually no border, I'm ALL and I'm exist in ALL including you. So what you're about to ask is actually what I'm about to ask to me. That's why I know it for certain what the question is once you thought about it. Or the flip side of it is the answer of the question that you're about to ask you will also find the answer from within your own self by your own self. Actually there is no possibility that you ask somebody else other than me, when you ask your teacher, I'm also exist in that teacher, when you ask your friend I'm also exist in your friend and when you ask yourself I'm also exist within your own self.




Abdun Nur

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2021, 01:08:22 AM »
Time as a linear construct is man made, time is in reality simply a spinning instant, it has form, a form that repeats endlessly in perception, we share the same form, the soul or human aura appears as a series of nested spherical torus formations.

The toroidal form is everywhere in nature. The torus allows a vortex of energy to form which bends back along itself and re-enters itself, continuously flowing back into itself. Thus the energy of a torus is continually refreshing itself, continually influencing itself.

The spinning moment is not a constant across all perception, the moment is relative to each interaction of consciousness, consciousness exists within the spinning moment, everything else is perception of consciousness, the deeper we dig into reality the more evidence proves this is the case.

I wrote a short explanation of energy:

https://earthcoinage.com/?page_id=5772

The evidence shows that only a single consciousness can exist, and all consciousness is in reality a fractal expression of that single consciousness, this conscious is not a god which is a separate entity, as no other conscious entity could exist, it is an entirety, this therefore proves no god exists.

Jafar

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2021, 01:59:44 PM »
The evidence shows that only a single consciousness can exist, and all consciousness is in reality a fractal expression of that single consciousness, this conscious is not a god which is a separate entity, as no other conscious entity could exist, it is an entirety, this therefore proves no god exists.

Unless one define the word "god" as entirety.
A boundless entirety, no boundary in any dimensions.
That's the reason why there's only one entirety.
A boundless one and not a bordered one.

Abdun Nur

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2021, 02:26:33 PM »
Peace Jafar,

A god is a separation, the word "god" appears for the first time in the 6th century in the Christian Codex Argenteus, the word God isn’t Judeo-Christian in origin, but if we take your view of a god as an hierarchical overlord, then this concept is utterly untrue, this would require a separation, and no separation could exist.

This is why the very foundation of Islam is "There is NO God!!!"

Jafar

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2021, 02:30:25 AM »
A god is a separation, the word "god" appears for the first time in the 6th century in the Christian Codex Argenteus, the word God isn’t Judeo-Christian in origin, but if we take your view of a god as an hierarchical overlord, then this concept is utterly untrue, this would require a separation, and no separation could exist.

This is why the very foundation of Islam is "There is NO God!!!"

If that's the case then the word "god" here is NOT The One Infinite / Boundless Creator.

The next question will be, what does the word "god" actually mean?
The origin of the english god came from proto-germanic language of god.
Based on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_paganism

An example of "god" are Woden, Thyr, Tunor and many others.
I cannot attest about their existence and/or non-existence as I haven't met any of them.

But ...
Let's assume the description about them are correct and they do exist.

Then certainly they're not The One Infinite Creator.
And if they do exist then they're among the creation of The One Infinite Creator, servant of The One Infinite Creator, manifestation of The One Infinite Creator.

The very foundation of 'universal law' is that there is nothing that is beyond or outside of The One Infinite Creator.
Everything is within The One Infinite Creator and not the other way around.
Including Time and Space, let alone "god(s)".

Thus it doesn't actually make sense for The One Infinite Creator to be angry and/or jealous and/or in conflict with "god(s)".
Although a god who is jealous, angry or in conflict with other god(s) will still make sense.

Abdun Nur

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2021, 12:43:55 AM »
There is only a single consciousness, as an entirety, nothing else of any sort can or could exist, nothing, this means you cannot have an entity god, the idea of a creator means you are manufactured as other, you cannot be, you are simply a fractal entirety, you are not a separate part, but an integral part, there is no you and a creator, only the entirety of the single consciousness.


Anoushirvan

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2021, 02:35:26 AM »
Salam,

That's a debate old like the world: is God immanent (inside or through time and/or space) or transcendent (outside time and/or space) ? Is there free-will or determinism (or fatalism) ?

Personally, I like the answer from Sufism (at least Rumi, Attar, Hallaj...) in which every self is part of God, the ultimate Self, like a sea is made of many drops and beyond.

There is a poem of Hallaj, saying more or less that when people raise their head towards the sky, asking if God exists or not, God is among them asking Himself the same question.

According to those Sufis, the quest of God is actually the quest of God Himself, searching for Himself.

So in the end, does God exist in time or outside time ? Well, according to Sufism, our self as a drop of the divine sea lives in time, and as a whole it leaves outside.

Can God be All-Knowing without jeopardizing free-will ? Well, according to Sufism, free-will is from the perspective of our own being while from the perspective of God, there is no free-will. The image that Rumi gives in the Mathnavi is that of a baker who wants people to be hungry so that they buy him bread, but doesn't approve hunger because none would buy bread.

So the contradiction appears when we try to appropriate for ourselves the perspective that would only be pertaining to God, and this is what Rumi calls "shirk", association to God.
In fact, Rum shows that whether we accept free-will or not, it will not change the end result of the events flow, so we'd better accept free-will because this is what we usually aspire to.


Abdun Nur

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2021, 02:57:52 AM »
Anoushirvan,

You're using circular reasoning, in your premise you assume a god exists, that is refuted, what exists is simply a single consciousness, logically, nothing else could exist, this logic is sound, it requires no other proof than we all possess consciousness, we are share the same perceptual experience in this particular perceptual reality, therefore we are of a single consciousness, physics proves this further through quantum nature, which is at the fundamental level simply the expression of consciousness.

Anoushirvan

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2021, 04:04:23 AM »
Abdun Nur,

No, it's not more circular reasoning than what the guy in the link is doing.
He starts from the assumption that God exists, and by reasoning on time and free-will, concludes to logical fallacies.
QED.

I'm just just dismissing his reasoning by arguing that somehow it is tied to his own vision of God, and with another vision, like the one of the Sufis I mentioned, he wouldn't be able to conclude to logical fallacies, at least not so easily.

My reasoning doesn't demonstrate that God does exist or does not exist. In fact, I find non concluding any reasoning about existence or non-existence of God that is solely based on the physical properties of spacetime and universe.


Abdun Nur

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Re: Can anyone respond to this claim of "logical contradiction"?
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2021, 07:17:03 AM »
Reason says evidence is required to hold a belief, even evidence indicating it may be so, however anecdotal, but for the existence of a god there is no evidence, even anecdotal, not even indicating a possibility. There is however evidence to support the idea of a single consciousness, and there is logic to support that conclusion, there is no logic to support a god entity concept. This is how reason functions, it takes what has evidence and then determines if a reasoned conclusion can be drawn from that evidence, there may be other conclusions the evidence would allow in some instances, but to accept anything it should be from evidence, and logic.

Religions function by creating blind faith, this requires the victim to have no discernible ability to reason, as blind faith is belief without any evidence or logic.

I piss people off who cannot reason all the time, and i can live with that, my intention is not to piss people off however, but to attempt to help them. Those who attempt to draw others into their own fantasy world of demons, angels, devils and other such silliness piss me off sometimes, and i can, through that negative feeling, insult them indirectly, which i should not do as it's against logic, it's a challenge.