Author Topic: Is this possible  (Read 5547 times)

Cerberus

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Re: Is this possible
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2020, 09:02:55 AM »

That's the exact thing narcs use against their victims though. There is a joke about it also:
"Narcissist's Prayer: That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did... You deserved it."


I responded to you with my personal opinion when you said something that boiled down to this: "she is hurt and hurt and damage is hard to fix" and that's how you dismiss it ? We're not even in the context of a narc vs a victim, or are you trying to prove someone here is a narc ?

You are describing survival of the fittest family system in which narcs are the parents. Unfortunately, this is unhealthy and immoral for humans: http://parenting.exposed/tag/survival-of-the-fittest-family-system/


No i'm not...and I've just re-explained it to OP.
"even animals aren't held back by their struggle, but in the contrary, they become stronger and more prepared", absolutely ZERO to do with bullying.

Such things don't apply to victims esp scapegoat children of narcs. What they go through is like emotional rape. Nature of narcs truly debunks the idea that movie villains are fictional characters. They live to be evil. Hard to believe. Children are an easy target. This sums up what is in store for them: https://www.nctsn.org/what-is-child-trauma/trauma-types/complex-trauma/effects

"such things I do not understand but here is another article, this one about child trauma"

Ok well to hell with stoic philosopy or buddhist wisdom or anything in-between, but assuming you follow the quran....what do you make of the following verses:


"For indeed, with hardship [will be] ease."

"Allah does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear"

"He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed"

(if you say "Such things don't apply to victims esp scapegoat children of narcs" I'd truly be impressed)

reel

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Re: Is this possible
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2020, 01:52:46 AM »
I responded to you with my personal opinion when you said something that boiled down to this: "she is hurt and hurt and damage is hard to fix" and that's how you dismiss it ? We're not even in the context of a narc vs a victim, or are you trying to prove someone here is a narc ?

She mentioned narcs. Later cleared up that it was about her employment. That said, there is a reason why narcs can't keep employees, spouses, friends and relatives. The abuse they do is called body snatching. We know very well that you are not a narc. What you said is concensus held by all of us. However, it doesn't apply to their victims.

No i'm not...and I've just re-explained it to OP.
"even animals aren't held back by their struggle, but in the contrary, they become stronger and more prepared", absolutely ZERO to do with bullying.

"such things I do not understand but here is another article, this one about child trauma"

Animals don't waste their lives taking revenge year after year like narcs. Here is what happened to Air Force veteran who killed himself for not being able to take the abuse any longer:

They suffered through smear campaigning, stalking, online harassment, slander, defamation, invasion of privacy, displaying of personal, medical, and financial information on blogs online, cyberbullying, cyberstalking, intimidation, job loss, hacking, credit monitoring, accessing of credit/auto accounts, and so much more.  The victims relocated twice within one year to "hide" their location, but the abuser would find their whereabouts by accessing a family members email acct.  The abuser constantly made threats of litigation of defamation and harassment against the victims, but the victims were never worried about the latter.  The abuser could never provide one shred of evidence of reported harassment.  The worst part is that the abuser claimed to be the victim of stalking and harassment in order to gain attention, support, and sympathy from their followers (which is a typical behavior of Narcissistic Personality disordered individuals). 
https://www.change.org/p/protection-for-victims-that-are-suffering-emotional-psychological-and-financial-abuse-by-narcissistic-personality-disordered-individuals



Ok well to hell with stoic philosopy or buddhist wisdom or anything in-between, but assuming you follow the quran....what do you make of the following verses:


"For indeed, with hardship [will be] ease."

"Allah does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear"

"He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed"

(if you say "Such things don't apply to victims esp scapegoat children of narcs" I'd truly be impressed)

My views about those verses actually changed. I wouldn't apply them to limited soceity we live in.

Let's not forget that  God says fitnah is worse than murder. Also this:

And how could you refuse to fight in the cause of God and of the utterly helpless men and women and children who are crying, "O our Sustainer! Lead us forth [to freedom] out of this land whose people are oppressors, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, a protector, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, one who will bring us succour!"4:75


By the way, narcs fit the description of oppressive disbelievers we find in Quran.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Cerberus

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Re: Is this possible
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2020, 05:29:58 AM »
She mentioned narcs. Later cleared up that it was about her employment. That said, there is a reason why narcs can't keep employees, spouses, friends and relatives. The abuse they do is called body snatching. We know very well that you are not a narc. What you said is concensus held by all of us. However, it doesn't apply to their victims.
You have to understand that we are not talking about narcs, or victims of narcs. I never did, nor did OP. I said, and I still maintain it, that we are not born to be perpetual victims, yes we can be wronged (and therefore be victims) but we follow our best judgement to do something about it, this is our life and we are eventually responsible for it.

When someone says, THIS or THAT is a narc, it doesn't make THIS or THAT a narc. For even the one who blames the other of evil doing can be blamed by others of evil doing themselves. Looking at things from different angles. Do they have good judgement ? I do not trust people to have good judgement at all. Are they biased ? I do not trust people to be unbiased at all. Naturally, people's reason is being overshadowed by their selfish emotions. It is the most pervasive thing that is happening in today's world. I feel hurt therefore I am hurt and he who appear to hurt me is the reason why. Incorrect. The things that appear to hurt you could be wrong, they're simply impressions, very simplistic, shallow impressions that poorly and selfishly explain why things are happening to you.


Animals don't waste their lives taking revenge year after year like narcs. Here is what happened to Air Force veteran who killed himself for not being able to take the abuse any longer:

This is an absurdly strange followup to what I said. It's very simple though, that even animals (assuming we mutually agree that we are supposed to be better than animals), THEY face struggle too, and they must deal with them and they do, and they become better, more experienced, more prepared for the wild life by doing so. Like a lion that had long lasting pride must have fought against so many lions, and must have the most scars too. It is not a matter of complaining but rather of doing the right thing...AND WE as humans must do the right thing aswell when facing tribulations. We are resourceful, intelligent, strong, thoughtful beings and we better believe so, positivity helps tremendously to uncover our potential. There is no life without struggle... So in my opinion, it is better to adopt a more positive mindset about struggle, and to take struggle as an opportunity to improve ourselves.

My views about those verses actually changed. I wouldn't apply them to limited soceity we live in.


It's ok for views to change, but only if they change for what's more reasonable. If you can thoughtfully back up why you think that a general statement like "Allah does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear" does not apply in today's world.


There is a lot that you ignore, things that affects us directly, things that require self-knowledge. Do you think someone who lacks self-knowledge is going to be able to TRUTHFULLY DIAGNOSE A SITUATION ? Ignoring their own self in the process despite how much your own self is affecting you in a situation, in reading the situation and forming opinions about it. That people wish to feel better about themselves  and the things they are willing to say, believe and accept to achieve that... There is more than just narcs and victims of narcs...

What you have brushed away before is an accurate, deep, truth; an ill-directed mind brings the most harm. Clueless people run toward their own demise. And pain is inevitable, and an invitation to reform or not reform. Most people do not reform though, they prefer the easy way, the pleasurable, less painful way, by means of things like distractions, self-fulfilling stances, finding comfort in groups, etc etc...


I think this is my last contribution for this thread.

reel

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Re: Is this possible
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2020, 03:25:25 AM »
You have to understand that we are not talking about narcs, or victims of narcs. I never did, nor did OP.

She did mention narcs and we know they are of dark triad:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/toxic-relationships/201812/beware-the-malevolent-dark-triad

I said, and I still maintain it, that we are not born to be perpetual victims, yes we can be wronged (and therefore be victims) but we follow our best judgement to do something about it, this is our life and we are eventually responsible for it.

I believe that also. Not getting justice can make it hard for some to move on. And honestly, we are responsible for how some people can defraud others. She would have not worked for the person if she had info on narcs.


When someone says, THIS or THAT is a narc, it doesn't make THIS or THAT a narc. For even the one who blames the other of evil doing can be blamed by others of evil doing themselves.

Normal humans can reflect. Hence, if they believe they did some sort of harm or if you tell them about it they have no problem in correcting themselves. Try that on a narc and soon they will put you in their list of enemies and for several years go after you. They can’t sit still and sleep until they do something to the victim.

Looking at things from different angles. Do they have good judgement ? I do not trust people to have good judgement at all. Are they biased ? I do not trust people to be unbiased at all. Naturally, people's reason is being overshadowed by their selfish emotions. It is the most pervasive thing that is happening in today's world. I feel hurt therefore I am hurt and he who appear to hurt me is the reason why. Incorrect. The things that appear to hurt you could be wrong, they're simply impressions, very simplistic, shallow impressions that poorly and selfishly explain why things are happening to you.

And what if the victim is not being spared? I already gave you an example of what happened to an air force. Narcs would have not been an issue if they weren't engulfed by the urge to take revenge.

This is an absurdly strange followup to what I said. It's very simple though, that even animals (assuming we mutually agree that we are supposed to be better than animals), THEY face struggle too, and they must deal with them and they do, and they become better, more experienced, more prepared for the wild life by doing so. Like a lion that had long lasting pride must have fought against so many lions, and must have the most scars too. It is not a matter of complaining but rather of doing the right thing...AND WE as humans must do the right thing aswell when facing tribulations. We are resourceful, intelligent, strong, thoughtful beings and we better believe so, positivity helps tremendously to uncover our potential. There is no life without struggle... So in my opinion, it is better to adopt a more positive mindset about struggle, and to take struggle as an opportunity to improve ourselves.

In animal kingdom, they only prefer the strongest. Hence, they practice eugenic. The weak is killed and even eaten by the moms. Lions find it okay to kill disrespectful cubs. But overall, animals seem to be programmed to like their struggle.

No human wishes to victim. Everyone wants to make good use of the gift they received from God.
But to stand up again, there is a need for safety which unfortunately narcs don't allow. It is much worse for the scapegoats.Nparents are notorious for sabotaging their targeted kids’ talents, grades, social life and just literally anything linked to happiness.

Those who commit honor killing seem to harbor NPD traits. They are usually welcomed back by their kid because they are not told that narcs don't change. Hope you can see now why victims can't totally always rise up from the ashes.

It's ok for views to change, but only if they change for what's more reasonable. If you can thoughtfully back up why you think that a general statement like "Allah does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear" does not apply in today's world.

Not sure if that one is interpreted correctly. Otherwise, God would not have asked us to pray so he would not burden us.

Here is the full verse: 2:286 On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

 

There is a lot that you ignore, things that affects us directly, things that require self-knowledge. Do you think someone who lacks self-knowledge is going to be able to TRUTHFULLY DIAGNOSE A SITUATION ? Ignoring their own self in the process despite how much your own self is affecting you in a situation, in reading the situation and forming opinions about it. That people wish to feel better about themselves  and the things they are willing to say, believe and accept to achieve that... There is more than just narcs and victims of narcs...

That’s the preferred weapon of narcs: Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment, often evoking in them cognitive dissonance and other changes including low self-esteem. Using denial, misdirection, contradiction, and misinformation, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's beliefs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

What you have brushed away before is an accurate, deep, truth; an ill-directed mind brings the most harm. Clueless people run toward their own demise. And pain is inevitable, and an invitation to reform or not reform. Most people do not reform though, they prefer the easy way, the pleasurable, less painful way, by means of things like distractions, self-fulfilling stances, finding comfort in groups, etc etc...
I think this is my last contribution for this thread.

I understand where you are coming from. Some years ago, I would have told a victim what you said here. But now i see where we are going wrong because of so much info coming out of FBI, CIA, Child protection agencies and many others on the danger of narcs. I had a lot of faith in humans. Unfortunately, there were things we all ignored about a certain personality for which narcs are living among us. I consider that to be our failure.



"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Cerberus

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Re: Is this possible
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2020, 04:22:35 AM »
The quality of thoughts that people harbor is what benefits them. Not them knowing about narcs or reading a bunch of random blog articles about it. Life doesn't revolve around that. It revolves around how one thinks.

And if anyone wants to learn something, definitely do not waste time reading tons of articles about narcs, reel is a good example of that. But instead, learn the distinction between reason and emotion. How reason must keep ALL emotions in check, and no matter how you feel, you must always try to follow reason instead of your emotions. Emotions don't know anything about right or wrong, they only seek to be fulfilled, selfishly, careless about anything or anyone else, careless about what is right or wrong. And they push you to do careless, selfish, self-fulfilling acts.

Our thinking has the ability to fix our emotional reactions to people. We can override our false impressions with more reasonable ones, and react to them accordingly.




Quote
There is a lot that you ignore, things that affects us directly, things that require self-knowledge. Do you think someone who lacks self-knowledge is going to be able to TRUTHFULLY DIAGNOSE A SITUATION ? Ignoring their own self in the process despite how much your own self is affecting you in a situation, in reading the situation and forming opinions about it. That people wish to feel better about themselves  and the things they are willing to say, believe and accept to achieve that... There is more than just narcs and victims of narcs...

That’s the preferred weapon of narcs: Gaslighting is a form of psychological......


Quote
Life is way too short to be thinking like this, to be living like a perpetual victim, or to be held back by other people's wrong doings... Also if you believed that you've been damaged tha's when you truly become damaged.

That's the exact thing narcs use against their victims though. There is a joke about it also:



At this point I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I have nothing for you and you got nothing for me, you follow your findings and I follow mine.
But if there is anything I must still emphasize on, despite our disagreement, is that you should definitely STOP RESPONDING LIKE THE ABOVE. I understand this is part of the typical "LITERALLY HITLER" type of liberal american speech to dismiss other people, but it's pretty crazy. And there is alot of crazy going on in the world rn and specially in your country (idk if it's because it's the most mediatized or because crazy people are becoming louder and louder over there or both?) and by crazy I mean those who gave up reason for their own selfish emotions. It's ok to be told that "you ignore things, here is why", doesn't make me have to be associated with a mental illness, the boogeyman that you created for yourself.

Jafar

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Re: Is this possible
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2020, 10:00:40 AM »
The quality of thoughts that people harbor is what benefits them.

100% Agree.

Harboring anger within, you shall 'benefit' from the anger within you.
Harboring hatred within, you shall 'benefit' from the hatred within you.
Harboring pride within, you shall 'benefit' from the pride within you.

And it works the same way with the opposite, harboring love within, you shall benefit from the love within you. etc..
You are what you truly are inside.

Back to 'salary' not being paid by an employer.
There is no need to hate or be angry at the employer, because such feelings will only caused additional sufferings.

Prepare all the evidences, go to the court, sue the employer,
But do it with love, love for the other employees who has experienced of salary not being paid (I assumed there must be many others if it's truly the habits of the employer) and potential employees who might suffer of being employed by the employer in the future.

And do it as love for the employer as well, it's a way of telling the employer that what they do might potentially hurt other people, the employer must be just to the work contract as agreed. Otherwise the employer might face hatred and anger from other employee, and their business will not grow as the employer has initially planned or dreamed of.

If one do it with love he/she can easily overcome any hurdles or fear that potentially faced him/her.
Because he/she feel 'pleasant' inside, when he/she feel pleasant 'inside' then he/she shall recognize no fear.