Author Topic: Qur'an 17:36  (Read 4058 times)

Wanderer

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2020, 01:27:10 PM »
Salam Layth

It is philosophical, in a sense. But it is also related to these specific verses in the Qur'an which, in my understanding, seem to contradict. As you say, having 'knowledge' of anything we cannot perceive is difficult, if not impossible.
So, in my opinion, it becomes a contradiction that God is angry at the Christians for not having 'knowledge' of something they cannot possibly have any knowledge of because it happened hundreds (now thousands) of years ago, which is why they rely on faith. However, no such anger is directed at, say, the Jews for following a Torah stating various things that they cannot possibly have any knowledge of, and so, once again, faith is necessary. Same goes for Muslims.
Why is it okay for Jews or Muslims to rely on faith, but not Christians? It is illogical to me.

Peace

Wanderer

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2020, 01:59:22 PM »
Salam everyone

I believe I have found an answer to my question after further research and analysis. Thank you for your input all of you.

God bless you

Peace

good logic

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2020, 02:12:52 PM »
Peace Wanderer.
Dp you mind sharing your answer?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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jkhan

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2020, 10:52:54 PM »


Why is it okay for Jews or Muslims to rely on faith, but not Christians? It is illogical to me.



I wonder you would ever respond in this forum again… I sense you won’t since you have found answer all of a sudden…

Anyway… ‘FAITH’ is not complete… Faith can completely overturn a person if what he or she kept faith on is lie… Faith has no evidence or proof… In court there is no value for ‘Faith’…

But Faith is vital or rather imperative in life in any aspect … Believing in God is Faith but not proof…. What is proof is what is incontrovertible… How it becomes incontrovertible is through study and research and comparison and verification and debate and in a state of being convinced … Knowledge plays a role here…

Your concern.. Jews and Muslim faith one God and why Christians cannot have faith of God has son… Faith is not at all an issue… But can we live only in faith? Then it is just blindness…
Note what God said to Messenger..
25:32 “And those who disbelieve say, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" Thus [it is] that We may strengthen thereby your heart. And We have spaced it distinctly.”

God knew Prophet did keep ‘Faith’ on God…. But faith won’t last if God doesn’t strengthen his heart… What is strengthening heart may mean… You can’t just get convinced just passing time or with the time… But need certain things to cultivate within a person to get convinced why he or she kept ‘Faith’ on something… So faith is not adamant trust or blindness with the time… such faith is just for the sake of existence and showoff and lip service… Faith should turn into a concrete proof…

If the ‘Faith’ of Christians (God is trinity or god has begotten a son) has given them a concrete proof then it is up to them what they claim… Proof is not something what one says or claims but what it convinces the knowledgeable to their knowledge who is neutral… But God told the truth in Torah that He is One.. and He told He is One in Quran… And He claims He sent Torah and Quran… So it is the duty of Christians to explore and get proofs rather than just remaining only in mere faith which has no value …. Coz Same God claims He is One and same God claims He sent Torah and Quran… Same God Claims for Jesus He sent Injeel… Are Torah and Quran lies or Bible contradicts?.. That’s worth research for them if they are interested… or remain in Faith level forever…

So dear… Believers are not on merely based on ‘Faith’ but thorough exploration to give meaning to their faith… Be them Jews, Christians or anyone they all are successful who stepped through from mere Faith level to Proof level…
Faith is not always true in any aspect… Faith is just a step…

So ‘Faith’ and ‘Proof’ are two interrelated matters but faith alone is nothing but just individual’s choice at will or by birth …. 



Someone

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2020, 06:00:57 PM »
Salam everyone

There's something I have trouble understanding, and I would like some thoughts on this.
In the Qur'an, verse 17:36 states the following: And do not follow what you have no knowledge of. The hearing, and the sight, and the brains/heart—all these will be questioned.
And in 18:4-5: And to warn those who say, “The Lofty Refuge has begotten a son.” They have no knowledge of this, nor did their forefathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths. They say nothing but a lie.
The Qur'an says we should not follow what we have no knowledge of, and criticizes those (Christians) who say that God has begotten a son, because they have no knowledge of this.
But... Followers of various religious beliefs have no more 'knowledge' about the factual legitimacy of their beliefs than Christians. This includes followers of the Qur'an. A follower of the Qur'an does not, cannot and will not know anything pertaining to God, or the lack thereof, until perhaps his death. He can only choose to believe one thing or another, with more or less basis in logic, history, science etc., but he can never have knowledge. This is why religions such as Christianity, Islam, etc. are called faiths.
So, can anyone inform me of why it is considered an illegitimate act due to lack of knowledge on the matter for people to have faith in Jesus as the son of God, but not an illegitimate act, despite lack of knowledge on the matter, for people to have faith in the Qur'an?
I'm wondering if the answer to my question lies in the meaning of the Arabic word used, "'ilm"? I have looked up the root in several dictionaries, but the definitions have failed to enlighten me.
People of the free-minds forum, please come to my aid and gift me with your insights and thoughts on this.

Peace

Peace Wanderer,

I think it is a healthy habit to question any and every assertion encountered during our life, from where ever it may come, even from the gospel or the quran. In fact and in reality, no thing nor any person or any concept or idea is sacred, it all can be questioned and criticized for their value and benefit.

This is a strong foundation to build your system on -- Do not consider any thing as sacred -- all our knowledge, books, ideas about the creator god, countries, religions, organisations... all are constructions in human mind, no real link to Reality. As per science, we can sense only 5% of what is really existing, using all our scientific might. So how can anyone claim knowledge of anything?

Also, the creator of this universe is way beyond what we may think of him. BUT, with our experience in this life, we trust him to bring back the sun the next day according to his laws, and we trust him for keeping enough air for everyone to breath, again according to his natural laws, and we trust him to let us wake the next morning after a good night sleep... we trust the creator for many critical things... And the creator doesn't need our faith or trust, but we need to trust him, as the creator is the only constant in existence, all else is in a transitory state. 

His open book, accessible for everyone and in every period, is the book of this creation, written according to his law, for everyone to see and to learn from. But most of us fall into human fantasies and live confused.
 
So yes, you can question any thing, even the quran. And if doesn't stand scrutiny, then dump it and look elsewhere.

I hope this helps. If so, I can give you the second principle to live in peace.

 :peace:
 

 

Wanderer

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2020, 05:37:37 AM »
Salam good logic.

Certainly. I read a few commentaries on the verse (as I usually do when I seem to fail to reach a satisfactory understanding by myself) and found Muhammad Asad's take on it to be a reasonable explanation that solved my issue for now. Asad argues that the pronoun that is usually taken to refer to the concept of God having a son in 18:4 (ma lahum biHI min 'ILMIN) actually refers to God, so that the verse is better rendered as 'they have no knowledge of Him (God)'. Perhaps I will take issue with this interpretation as well as I reflect on it more, but for now, it satisfies me.

Peace

Wanderer

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2020, 05:58:18 AM »
Salam jkhan

Brother, I do not understand why you need to write so passive aggressively. Your replies to me (what I gather from them) do not answer my question - it has nothing to do with my ability to 'grasp' your response or the like. I think our perspectives on faith, the Qur'an etc. are quite different, and we seem to be in different places in our spiritual journeys. I, for my part, can't help but question everything. It's an inherent part of me, and, I believe, an essential and very important part of our existence and our journey towards some sort of spiritual understanding or enlightenment. I do not believe what is in the Qur'an, simply because it is in the Qur'an. I believe what is in the Qur'an only IF I find it to be logical, consistent, reasonable, universal and demonstrating a wisdom and knowledge that I find to be consistent with One who created all, knows all, and is the Most Wise of all. I've been studying the Qur'an for years, but have not yet come to the conclusion that it is, in its entirety, divine. I keep questioning, and whenever something strikes me, I examine it from as many angles as I can think of, to gain new and great insights. Maybe one day I will have uncovered an understanding of the Qur'an that compels me to accept it as the Book of God. But I will never stop asking questions. To take a Qur'anic example: If he had not been willing to question his own beliefs time and time again and think critically, what would Ibrahim have spent his life on? Which celestial object would he have ended up serving?

Peace brother

Wanderer

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2020, 06:08:16 AM »
Salam Someone

Yes, I agree with you, and you seem to understand where I'm coming from. Lack of critical thinking because something is too sacred, too taboo, too culturally ingrained, or because 'that's just the way this Holy Book/this culture/these people say it is, who am I to question it', is one of the reasons great evils are allowed to happen at the hands of man. Of course, one shouldn't swerve from one extreme to the other - rely on science and logic and scrutinize your own beliefs sincerely once in a while to see if they really stick. Chances are, you won't be able to go too far off track then.

Peace

good logic

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2020, 07:01:42 AM »
Peace Wanderer..
Thanks for sharing.

For me, I agree that  you should find your answers by yourself,regardless Qoran instructs the reader/student to ponder its words thouroughly.
 Your life, your journey and your accountability. I encourage you to carry on and persevere in choosing/investigating your own journey.
Best of luck in your studies brother..
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Wanderer

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2020, 07:23:08 AM »
Salam good logic

I try to do exactly that - ponder the words of the Qur'an thoroughly. Since it invites me to think, reflect and ask questions, it should (by its own logic) stand thorough scrutiny. So far, every question I've had has had an answer. It has been a hard but interesting journey. Time will tell where my search leads me. I appreciate your words brother. God bless.

Peace