Author Topic: Qur'an 17:36  (Read 4069 times)

Wanderer

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Qur'an 17:36
« on: June 21, 2020, 11:35:12 AM »
Salam everyone

There's something I have trouble understanding, and I would like some thoughts on this.
In the Qur'an, verse 17:36 states the following: And do not follow what you have no knowledge of. The hearing, and the sight, and the brains/heart—all these will be questioned.
And in 18:4-5: And to warn those who say, “The Lofty Refuge has begotten a son.” They have no knowledge of this, nor did their forefathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths. They say nothing but a lie.
The Qur'an says we should not follow what we have no knowledge of, and criticizes those (Christians) who say that God has begotten a son, because they have no knowledge of this.
But... Followers of various religious beliefs have no more 'knowledge' about the factual legitimacy of their beliefs than Christians. This includes followers of the Qur'an. A follower of the Qur'an does not, cannot and will not know anything pertaining to God, or the lack thereof, until perhaps his death. He can only choose to believe one thing or another, with more or less basis in logic, history, science etc., but he can never have knowledge. This is why religions such as Christianity, Islam, etc. are called faiths.
So, can anyone inform me of why it is considered an illegitimate act due to lack of knowledge on the matter for people to have faith in Jesus as the son of God, but not an illegitimate act, despite lack of knowledge on the matter, for people to have faith in the Qur'an?
I'm wondering if the answer to my question lies in the meaning of the Arabic word used, "'ilm"? I have looked up the root in several dictionaries, but the definitions have failed to enlighten me.
People of the free-minds forum, please come to my aid and gift me with your insights and thoughts on this.

Peace

good logic

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2020, 12:29:37 PM »
Peace Wanderer.
17:36 is asking us to seek knowledge/verify things before we accept them as facts/truth. i.e to seek knowledge about things we do not know.:(To use our faculties for checking information.

You shall not accept any information, unless you  seek knowledge about/verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

18:4-5 is saying "they have not used 17:36 and if they did, they would not be saying it:

And to warn those who said, "God has begotten a son!"
وَيُنذِرَ الَّذينَ قالُوا اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ وَلَدًا
They possess no knowledge about this, nor did their parents. What a blasphemy coming out of their mouths! What they utter is a gross lie.
ما لَهُم بِهِ مِن عِلمٍ وَلا لِـٔابائِهِم كَبُرَت كَلِمَةً تَخرُجُ مِن أَفوٰهِهِم إِن يَقولونَ إِلّا كَذِبًا

i.e they are saying this "without knowledge" only accepting/ following wrong information without checking it.
So it agrees with 17:36 and validates it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

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Wanderer

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2020, 01:33:43 PM »
Salam good logic.

Thank you for your reply. I do not, however, find it satisfying. Like I said, regarding religious beliefs, it is impossible to have any knowledge. Christians believe the Gospels out of faith, because they were not there 2000 years ago to witness and verify the events described to them. They must have faith because they cannot have knowledge. Just like Muslims of today are not there to verify the revelation of the Qur'an to Muhammad and cannot be said to have any more knowledge than their Christian contemporaries. Muslims and Christians seek knowledge in the exact same way - through Scripture. So I believe my question still stands.

Peace.

good logic

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2020, 03:50:54 PM »
Peace Wanderer.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

jkhan

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2020, 10:49:47 PM »
Salam everyone

There's something I have trouble understanding, and I would like some thoughts on this.
In the Qur'an, verse 17:36 states the following: And do not follow what you have no knowledge of. The hearing, and the sight, and the brains/heart—all these will be questioned.
And in 18:4-5: And to warn those who say, “The Lofty Refuge has begotten a son.” They have no knowledge of this, nor did their forefathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths. They say nothing but a lie.
The Qur'an says we should not follow what we have no knowledge of, and criticizes those (Christians) who say that God has begotten a son, because they have no knowledge of this.
But... Followers of various religious beliefs have no more 'knowledge' about the factual legitimacy of their beliefs than Christians. This includes followers of the Qur'an. A follower of the Qur'an does not, cannot and will not know anything pertaining to God, or the lack thereof, until perhaps his death. He can only choose to believe one thing or another, with more or less basis in logic, history, science etc., but he can never have knowledge. This is why religions such as Christianity, Islam, etc. are called faiths.
So, can anyone inform me of why it is considered an illegitimate act due to lack of knowledge on the matter for people to have faith in Jesus as the son of God, but not an illegitimate act, despite lack of knowledge on the matter, for people to have faith in the Qur'an?
I'm wondering if the answer to my question lies in the meaning of the Arabic word used, "'ilm"? I have looked up the root in several dictionaries, but the definitions have failed to enlighten me.
People of the free-minds forum, please come to my aid and gift me with your insights and thoughts on this.

Peace

I am glad I am back in this forum and hope someone would benefit … also glad having to go duty and get back on track….. wish you all same and better future….

Dear Wanderer…
I think you are in a little confusion but seems strangled in that little confusion… “Ilm” Knowledge is something to seek by exploration and verification….Knowledge is a gift from God …. That’s why we ask from God to increase our knowledge… we don’t ask to increase unless it is truth…. Knowledge is truth…
First be neutral when you are not aware or confused….If you are not aware or confused, that means you have no specific knowledge on it to be certain… If you give weight to something while in confusion then that looks true to you… Be neutral while you read my response…
22:8 “And of the people is he who disputes about God without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening book
Above verse clarifies that to dispute or talk about God three key factors are required…based on that they can debate or talk or dispute… Can’t they? Yes.. They can..
Let me turn to your concerned verses…
** 17:36 “And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned.”
Do you accept the above verse (17:36) in general? Whether you accept or not… what is intelligent way for human being to speak… That’s with knowledge… Knowledge comes with effort and dedication… That’s what we all believe … but as per God He gives it… all incorporated…
So above verse is so common in everything we do …. Pursue with what you have knowledge….that leads to success… regardless of aspect…

Your next verse…compared with above is 18:4-5  “and to warn those who say, 'God has taken to Himself a son'; they have no knowledge of it, they nor their fathers; a monstrous word it is, issuing out of their mouths; they say nothing but a lie.”

About whom the above verse is? About God…leave the Jesus aside.. It’s about God.. while the verse 17:36 is general instruction… Key word used to denote is “DON’T PURSUE” …

Okay let me ask you simple question to simplify this further…
Do you have KNOWLEDGE about yourself more or I have more knowledge about you? That’s pretty obvious….
God says about God… God speaks out about God …. Does God know about Himself more or those who say that God has begotten a son?  How come these people know more than God? And that also about God they know better than God Himself?

That’s why God says “Warn” … “They have no knowledge about IT”… Of course they have no knowledge… it’s mere guess work out of curiosity and what their forefathers were keep guessing…
Doesn’t God know about God? Why they want to give a child to God while God doesn’t have a child? From where they got this KNOWLEDGE? How can it be a knowledge which has no proof? Lies are not knowledge even how high or how true they may look or even how well it is written and documented…. Knowledge is based on mere truth….Truth is knowledge.. knowing the truth will expose the lies… That’s common to Christians or muslims or anyone… 17:36 is perfect for anyone to follow if needs clarity..

So.. Dear Wanderer…18:4-5 was their imagination in total blindness without KNOWLEDGE without GUIDANCE without ENLIGHTENING BOOK 22:8 …. They have no base….Unfortunately People followed them.. So… if in any scripture/s in which it is written God has taken a Son then it is a big lie… it is the duty of the person who believe such book/s to verify how the God can have a son and why? If God has a son how can He be One?
Even Quran explore and verify… 17:36 is not exempted to verify quran as well… why to believe in quran just coz people say it is from God…

Wanderer

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2020, 06:54:30 AM »
Salam jkhan

Okay, so let me see if I follow your argument, more or less (it seems a bit jumbled to me). To speak about God we need knowledge OR guidance OR an enlightening book (or possibly all). That's fine, but not really the subject of my question.
Then you say that God knows Himself better than we do. Quite logical, no argument there. For us to know God, God needs to tell us about Himself, in some way. By book, inspiration, experience, whatever. Of course.

Neither of these points answer my question.

Neither belief in the Qur'an (stating that Jesus is not the son of God), nor the Gospels (stating, more or less indirectly, that Jesus is the son of God - of course, one can always argue whether or not such passages should be taken metaphorically, how they should be interpreted etc.) is KNOWLEDGE. Both are FAITH. Actually, your point works well here, although possibly not the way you intended it to: we, as humans, in my opinion, can never KNOW anything about God. We can BELIEVE certain things in one way or another, but we can never KNOW. We can never see, hear, observe, measure or in any other way gather objective data about God. Jesus may well be the Son of God. He may also not be. There's absolutely no way of KNOWING. So, why is the 'knowledge' (which isn't really knowledge) Christians derive from the Bible, stating Jesus to be the son of God, WRONG, while the exact same type of 'knowledge' (which isn't really knowledge) through scripture that Muslims derive from the Qur'an, GOOD?
Does 'ilm denote a different type of knowledge than what I'm referring to? And if so, how is the 'ilm of the Christians different from the 'ilm of the Muslims?

Peace

good logic

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2020, 08:14:20 AM »
Peace Wanderer.
 I hope you do not mind me coming back to clarify about "ilm"- knowledge-?
"Ilm" is all the information we learn in our life.
All knowledge is from GOD. Even Malaika acknowledge that." La Ilm Lana Illa Ma Allamtana".
17:36 is asking us to make sure the "ilm" we learn is checked by our given faculties.
In the case of those who say" GOD has begoetten a son", whether it is faith or knowledge, where have they got this information from? And have they checked it:?
Did GOD say it/teach it? Where?
Is it evidenced/proven "Ilm"? Where?

So where in their scripture does it say "GOD has begotten a son"?
They have no knowledge about it being true from GOD. It is fabricated.
There is no contradiction or issue with both context of the verses you are checking in this regard.
Of course it is my understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

jkhan

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2020, 08:28:30 AM »
Salam jkhan

Okay, so let me see if I follow your argument, more or less (it seems a bit jumbled to me). To speak about God we need knowledge OR guidance OR an enlightening book (or possibly all). That's fine, but not really the subject of my question.
Then you say that God knows Himself better than we do. Quite logical, no argument there. For us to know God, God needs to tell us about Himself, in some way. By book, inspiration, experience, whatever. Of course.

Neither of these points answer my question.

Neither belief in the Qur'an (stating that Jesus is not the son of God), nor the Gospels (stating, more or less indirectly, that Jesus is the son of God - of course, one can always argue whether or not such passages should be taken metaphorically, how they should be interpreted etc.) is KNOWLEDGE. Both are FAITH. Actually, your point works well here, although possibly not the way you intended it to: we, as humans, in my opinion, can never KNOW anything about God. We can BELIEVE certain things in one way or another, but we can never KNOW. We can never see, hear, observe, measure or in any other way gather objective data about God. Jesus may well be the Son of God. He may also not be. There's absolutely no way of KNOWING. So, why is the 'knowledge' (which isn't really knowledge) Christians derive from the Bible, stating Jesus to be the son of God, WRONG, while the exact same type of 'knowledge' (which isn't really knowledge) through scripture that Muslims derive from the Qur'an, GOOD?
Does 'ilm denote a different type of knowledge than what I'm referring to? And if so, how is the 'ilm of the Christians different from the 'ilm of the Muslims?

Peace

Dear Wanderer...

What GL had explained is giving much sense in my understanding and I wonder why you failed to grasp..

Look.. Your concern was 17:36 and 18:4-5... You felt like both contradict.. Is it?

I responded within my understanding of Quran...
But now you expand your concern...
Since you brought Quranic verses I go within Quran...
First as per Quran  God taught human.. Yeah not only human almost all living being.. For example even to Malaika God taught..
That's part of knowledge.. But still God keep on teaching us with knowledge.. That we don't perceive God is behind it.. Same way God guides us that we don't perceive it..
So since the verses gave concern to you let's adhere to Quran..
Your concern now "We don't know about God anything" but we only believe...so we have no knowledge..so how to pursue God.. No.. No.. That's not right logic within Quran.. We know about God.. We have knowledge about God as much as He has explained taught.. Belief is based on knowledge.. .. But not guidance.. Guidance can be even without knowledge.. That's God's business..
God says about Himself many a thing in Quran.. So that's our God.. We can't say we don't know..
Definitely there is a fact that is other side of knowledge.. That's  "No knowledge"....
So when there is no knowledge it is not worthy acting as having knowledge.. That's worse.. Coz knowledge is truth and not lies.. We seek knowledge.. That means we seek truth.. Not we seek lies.. We don't see God.. So no knowledge..

What went wrong to those in 18:4-5 they remained as they have knowledge while they have no knowledge... They didn't accept that there is something called "NO Knowledge"

Why did malaika said to God " we have no knowledge other than what you taught " that's honesty.. Coz they accepted they are restricted with knowledge.. All knowing is God only... Did they try to act like they know what was taught to Adam.. Will not God know then malaika Lieing..

Simply God is behind knowledge...
God gives knowledge as He wishes..  And God guides as He wishes... And God reminded with books ... These are the faculty of knowing reaching to God...  That's why I always believed that QURAN is not the only source for salvation.. But above three altogether OR even individually.. ... If one didn't get salvation by his knowledge or guidance or books then  shame on him.. Others are destined by God's word...


Layth

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2020, 08:45:19 AM »
Dear Wanderer,

I think I get your question, but it seems more philosophical than practical. To have “knowledge” without speaking to God directly means you have to first have “faith” in that which you are seeking the knowledge from.

So, for a Muslim to seek knowledge about God, he/she would first have to accept the Quran on faith or empirical evidence or a combination of both.

Reason and logic can be used as support tools - but there is always difficulty doing this when we speak of things unseen by human eyes.

Can God have a son? Of course He can if He had decided to do so. However, the book we have accepted tells us categorically that the answer is ‘ no’.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Wanderer

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Re: Qur'an 17:36
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2020, 01:17:19 PM »
Salam good logic.

I appreciate your elaborations. I still, however, feel that they fail to answer my question. You said:
17:36 is asking us to make sure the "ilm" we learn is checked by our given faculties.
In the case of those who say" GOD has begoetten a son", whether it is faith or knowledge, where have they got this information from? And have they checked it:?
Did GOD say it/teach it? Where?
Is it evidenced/proven "Ilm"? Where?

So where in their scripture does it say "GOD has begotten a son"?
They have no knowledge about it being true from GOD. It is fabricated.

How do you suppose Muslims are able to verify the truth of the Qur'an through their given faculties any more than Christians? We cannot perceive God. Thus, we cannot 'verify' anything when it comes to these things. They get their information from the Bible, which they believe to be true. Is there any way to objectively and definitively prove that the Gospels and their narrative on Jesus isn't true? No. We can ask Muslims the same: where do you get your information from? The answer would be the Qur'an. Have you checked it? No. How could they?

To clarify, my issue here is the fact that the Qur'an seems to indicate that we can somehow 'verify' in some objective way or other that Jesus was not the son of God, or generally that God does not have offspring. But we cannot. And it makes no sense to me that God would berate the Christians because they have not 'verified' their information, and thus have no 'knowledge'. We cannot verify the truth of various statements of the Qur'an, just as Christians cannot verify various statements of the Bible, among those the status of Jesus as the son of God.

Peace