Author Topic: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being  (Read 4912 times)

nimnimak_11

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Re: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2020, 08:21:53 AM »
You lost me at step 4.

We cannot imagine almightiness because as soon as you imagine it you limit it and almightiness is limitless by definition. Sure, we can perhaps understand the concept of it but isn't that different to what you mean?

Omnipotence = that which can do all that is doable. This is clear in our understanding. No other definition is possible or logical. By sticking to these meaningful words, we haven't limited omnipotence in any way. Whether omnipotence is something that we understand but can't imagine, is not yet clear to me. But it doesn't make any difference to the argument.

Any given thing that we understand is neither absurd nor meaningless. It is therefore either a possibility with regards to Existence, or a necessary truth with regards to Existence (if it is neither a possibility or a necessary truth, then logically it's either an impossibility, or it's meaningless). By definition omnipotence (just like the concept of Existence/omnipresence) is not a possibility with regards to Existence (see premise 5 for more details). It is also neither meaningless or absurd. This logically leaves us with it being a necessary truth with regards to Existence.

It's the same with infinity. We understand the concept. So it is neither an absurd concept or a meaningless term. So it is either a possibility with regards to Existence or a necessary truth with regards to Existence. Existence can never become infinite from a finite state as that would require expanding into non-existence (which is absurd...which means that it is not true of Existence). Because infinity is neither absurd, nor possible, nor meaningless, it is a necessary truth with regards to Existence.

nimnimak_11

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Re: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2020, 08:32:06 AM »
What does imagination have to do with a situation being possible or impossible ? How do the rules that determine whether something is possible or not relate to it being imaginable ? Specially since imagination isn't bound by those rules.....

A simple example, "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God "
You can imagine it, but it's not gonna happen.

Reason, understanding and imagination, tell us what's possible or true with regards to existence. Anything that you can imagine or understand clearly and distinctly is either true of existence or possible of existence. Let's look at your camel example. Is it a case of clear and distinct imagination?

To answer this you'd have to give a full definition of camel and needle. If in your definition of camel and needle the truth is such that the camel can never fit through the eye of the needle (because the needle is too small), then you cannot imagine a camel going through the eye of a needle. I mean try to imagine it. Try to imagine fitting something very big through something much smaller than it. You cannot imagine it. You'd have to alter your definition of needle or camel such that the needle is more representative of a large building like structure (think of a giant needle) or that your camel is so small that it can't be viewed as a standard camel. In that scenario, an altered camel can pass through the eye of an altered needle. It is a hypothetical possibility and we can imagine it.

Try to imagine something that is meaningful, but can never exist. If you believe you can succeed in this, show me and I will show you that you are mistaken.

nimnimak_11

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Re: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2020, 08:33:49 AM »
Proof of GOD s existence ?
There isn t one for everybody, there is one only for believers..
GOD knows we can never know or prove His existence by our own limited knowledge without clues and a message telling us about the unseen and explaining His attributes.

GOD also knows we cannot prove that He does not exist either.

One can also know GOD exist by other means/senses. GOD still communicates with us. All one needs to do is search for GOD
 Nevertheless,It is good to discuss GOD s existence for reflection purpose.
GOD bless.
Peace.

But there is a clear proof such that it is immune to doubt. This is a matter of pure reason. Just as one cannot doubt that 1+1=2, one cannot deny that God exists.

Cerberus

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Re: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2020, 10:20:00 AM »
Reason, understanding and imagination, tell us what's possible or true with regards to existence. Anything that you can imagine or understand clearly and distinctly is either true of existence or possible of existence. Let's look at your camel example. Is it a case of clear and distinct imagination?

To answer this you'd have to give a full definition of camel and needle. If in your definition of camel and needle the truth is such that the camel can never fit through the eye of the needle (because the needle is too small), then you cannot imagine a camel going through the eye of a needle. I mean try to imagine it. Try to imagine fitting something very big through something much smaller than it. You cannot imagine it. You'd have to alter your definition of needle or camel such that the needle is more representative of a large building like structure (think of a giant needle) or that your camel is so small that it can't be viewed as a standard camel. In that scenario, an altered camel can pass through the eye of an altered needle. It is a hypothetical possibility and we can imagine it.

Try to imagine something that is meaningful, but can never exist. If you believe you can succeed in this, show me and I will show you that you are mistaken.

Just to be clear and keep it simple and concise, my criticism was to your claim that "If it can be imagined, then by definition it's not an impossibility." which is completly wrong specifically because imagination isn't bound by the rules that make things possible or not. Which is why you had to add stuff like "reason" and "understanding", implicitely recrifying your claim...And I don't disagree;

nimnimak_11

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Re: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2020, 10:43:53 AM »
Just to be clear and keep it simple and concise, my criticism was to your claim that "If it can be imagined, then by definition it's not an impossibility." which is completly wrong specifically because imagination isn't bound by the rules that make things possible or not. Which is why you had to add stuff like "reason" and "understanding", implicitely recrifying your claim...And I don't disagree;

Our mind and imagination is entirely dependent on existence. Existence determines what things are possible or not. Since we are entirely dependent on existence we cannot think or imagine beyond or outside of existence. So imagination is bound by existence and it is existence that makes things possible or not. To prove this, try and think or imagine something that is meaningful and coherent that has never existed and can never exist.

Think about it, if it's hypothetically impossible (as in it can never exist and has never existed) how can your mind or imagination go beyond or outside of existence when there is nothing outside of existence and your imagination is entirely dependent on existence?

If you could imagine impossibilities (something or a state of affairs that has never existed and can never exist), then you should at least be able to give me one example.

good logic

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Re: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2020, 01:05:01 PM »
Peace nimnimak_11
Hello brother.
It is not that I disagree with you. It is just a fact that some people are allergic to GOD s existence.
Reason has different recipes according to the level of "arrogance" and "minds made up" of people.

So when you say, quote:
"But there is a clear proof such that it is immune to doubt. This is a matter of pure reason. Just as one cannot doubt that 1+1=2, one cannot deny that God exists."

I say that maybe so,but a better "reason" to some people will be for GOD to show up in person
.Doubt in spite of  pure reason exists in the mind of people more/ better than GOD exist.
Let us see what develops in this thread, it will be interesting .
Thank you for sharing your reasoning..
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

reel

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Re: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2020, 05:51:08 PM »
What does imagination have to do with a situation being possible or impossible ? How do the rules that determine whether something is possible or not relate to it being imaginable ? Specially since imagination isn't bound by those rules.....

A simple example, "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God "
You can imagine it, but it's not gonna happen.

Plenty among law of attraction practitioners, Christians, Buddhists and Hindus are of the belief that all creations are done and our thoughts can’t cross that border. That means if you can imagine something then it already exists and hence, can be achieved in real life. No hard work neccessary. You can make all rules say goodbye. Goal of Quran, in my experience, is to help us build the connection with God for similar reason. We have to have faith in him. In law of attraction, they call this having faith in the universe. It is still an art. Quran is a better guide for that.

Edit: If you want to test if you can get something just with imagination try this LOA test:

https://youtu.be/AyTN39vT_7Y




"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

amin

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Re: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2020, 09:26:22 PM »
Plenty among law of attraction practitioners, Christians, Buddhists and Hindus are of the belief that all creations are done and our thoughts can’t cross that border. That means if you can imagine something then it already exists and hence, can be achieved in real life. No hard work neccessary. You can make all rules say goodbye. Goal of Quran, in my experience, is to help us build the connection with God for similar reason. We have to have faith in him. In law of attraction, they call this having faith in the universe. It is still an art. Quran is a better guide for that.

Edit: If you want to test if you can get something just with imagination try this LOA test:

https://youtu.be/AyTN39vT_7Y






May be true, but sometimes with such belief or imaginations, we end up facing the actual contradicting reality and truth that will make us more stressful. my experience I think the belief in God is to accept what it comes and move forward and that looks to be more truthful and peaceful.

Cerberus

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Re: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2020, 01:53:52 AM »
Our mind and imagination is entirely dependent on existence. Existence determines what things are possible or not. Since we are entirely dependent on existence we cannot think or imagine beyond or outside of existence. So imagination is bound by existence and it is existence that makes things possible or not. To prove this, try and think or imagine something that is meaningful and coherent that has never existed and can never exist.

Think about it, if it's hypothetically impossible (as in it can never exist and has never existed) how can your mind or imagination go beyond or outside of existence when there is nothing outside of existence and your imagination is entirely dependent on existence?

If you could imagine impossibilities (something or a state of affairs that has never existed and can never exist), then you should at least be able to give me one example.

Again I'm very specific....Imagination is not bound the rules that make things possible or not. Sure you can look at existence as a pool for things to imagine and then pick multiple unrelated elements and bring them together randomly. (this is where creativity comes from)
Take a tree of babies for example. A tree with babies of different skin colors hanging  :confused:
Or take existing things and ignore laws that they are subjected to, like a 4 legged chair with 3 legs broken and standing on 1 leg. Imagination doesn't care about how that happens....Imagination is only the ability to create mental images.

Plenty among law of attraction practitioners, Christians, Buddhists and Hindus are of the belief that all creations are done and our thoughts can’t cross that border. That means if you can imagine something then it already exists and hence, can be achieved in real life. No hard work neccessary. You can make all rules say goodbye. Goal of Quran, in my experience, is to help us build the connection with God for similar reason. We have to have faith in him. In law of attraction, they call this having faith in the universe. It is still an art. Quran is a better guide for that.

Edit: If you want to test if you can get something just with imagination try this LOA test:
https://youtu.be/AyTN39vT_7Y


Imagination does have effect on the unconscious mind.

Fadiva

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Re: Proof for the existence of an Almighty/Omnipotent being
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2020, 04:24:10 AM »
 Peace nimnimak.
in black = minimak, in purple = me

1) We cannot understand impossibilities (things that can never exist such as married bachelors)

I think so... more precisely something which directly "contradicts"( i think there is a more appropriate word) the other thing like two opposite colors to discribe one color; bleu/red: it is bleu or red. (otherwise they are two color red and blue or a mix of them: purple or violet). This also depends on the definitions and understandings we have for words.

2) That which is not an impossibility either necessarily exists (necessity) or at the very least can come into existence (possibility). Where necessity or possibility is not the case, impossibility (round square) or meaninglessness (sdfjksdfj) is necessarily the case and vice versa.

Can you reformulate to be more precise ?
For you is possibility related to ability of imagination ?

3) We understand human and unicorn. Given 1-2, either p) humans/unicorns exist (necessity) or q) humans/unicorns can come into existence (possibility). With humans we know that both p and q are true. With unicorns we don't know if p is true, but we know that q is true because unicorns are hypothetically possible as opposed to hypothetically impossibile.

Yes. We can imagine thing like unicorn and its potetially possible. We can reason with possibilities and impossibilities, something which is not impossible can be possible, ok. But if we are talking about probabilities, thinks are different. I think that a lot of people reason with probabilities and take into consideration the environement they live in, more precisely the knowledge about it (named laws of nature). And what contradicts it, is rejected by some people.

4) Like human and unicorn, we understand omnipotence (almightiness). Therefore either p*) something omnipotent exists (necessity) or q*) something omnipotent can come into existence (possibility)

Yes but keep in mind that our understanding is limited, and some people understand more than other people. We have an idea of "omnipotence" (maybe a more clear idea for some believers)but I think we don't know how it is extended (I mean all the extent of this power).

5) Nothing can become omnipotent from a non-omnipotent state. This is because omnipotence logically requires reach and access to all things. This requires true omnipresence (to be all-present). Since nothing can become truly omnipresent without being truly omnipresent in the first place, nothing can become omnipotent from a non-omnipotent state. Also, that which is truly omnipresent cannot magically shift from being non-omnipotent to being omnipotent. That would be a case of something coming from nothing (which is absurd)

So, you mean that "something" which is omnipotent is uncreated. Ok.
I've never understood the question : who created God ? This question has not have to be for me.


6) Given the fact that we cannot understand impossibilities, and given the fact that we understand omnipotence, then either p* or q* or both must be true. 5 shows that q* is logically impossible, therefore; p*) something omnipotent exists (necessity). In other words, neither impossibile, meaningless or possible; therefore necessary.

You can change omnipotence to true Perfection (God/Allah) and you will still get the same result.

I think you have to clarify some parts, like what I have change in red. I quite understood what you said, but it I think it would be useful to clarify so that it can be clear to most of the the people here.

And in important thing ( I think): the definitions of words we have in mind or can understand, can have an effect on the result of our reasonning