Author Topic: If we take a Kaaba as a sign of prophetic presence in Mecca before Muhammad a.s.  (Read 858 times)

Safe_from_sweden

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Qur'an that tells us about the people to whom the last prophet Muhammad a.s. belonged and gives us insight and information about the ancestors of his people and about Muhammad's personality before he began to receive God's proclamation. Here are verses illustrating it:
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12:3 We narrate to you the best stories through what We have inspired to you in this Qur'an; and before it you were of those who were unaware.

28:46 And nor were you on the side of the mount when We called. But it is a mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.

32:3 Or do they say: "He fabricated it!" No, it is the truth from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who never received a warner before you, in order that they may be guided.

34:44 We had not given to them any books to study, nor did We send to them before you any warner.

36:6 To warn a people whose fathers were not warned, for they are unaware.

42:52 And thus, We inspired to you a revelation of Our command. You did not know what was the Book, nor what was faith. Yet, We made it a light to guide whoever We wish from among Our servants. Surely, you guide to a straight path.

93:7 And He found you lost, and He guided you?
-------------------------------
The following can be summarized about Muhammad a.s. and his people from the Qur'an:

- That Muhammad, as a man before the Qur'an was completely demeaning, lost and that he had no knowledge of god-spirited writings.
- That Muhammad's people before him never had anyone else who came before to warn them and guide them in the right path.
- That the people of Muhammad had no god-spirited writings before the Qur'an.
- that to Muhammad's ancestors before him, no one came to warn them.

The Qur'an excludes any possibility that among the people of Muhammad or his ancestors there were one or more messengers of God who had previously admonisheed his people, who had previously taught them true faith, or who had previously left some god-spirited scriptures that they could follow and correct.
It seems to me that Quran rejects the claim that today's Kaaba (arabic: الكعبة al-Ka’bah, "cube") in Mecca was built by Abraham and Ishmael.
If, on the other hand, we were to accept that today's Kaaba is that house or bejt (مالبيت) from verse 2:127 built by Abraham and Ishmael, it would mean that two of God's prophets stayed and settled in the areas where Muhammad's people lived for centuries, which leads to the inevitable conclusion that two of God's prophets had a messenger's and prophetic mission among these people which would ultimately undermine verses in the Qur'an that speak of the opposite.

Hajj is something that Qur’an binds to Abraham a.s. as the messenger of God and if the Hajj would be geographically related to today's Mecca and thus to the ancestors and the people to whom Muhammad a.s. belong then it would mean that his people had the knowledge of the correct faith that they got through Ibrahim a.s. and Ismael a.s. which would be contrary to those verses which say that no one came to that people and ancestors before Muhammad a.s. Furthermore, over the course of 3,000 years, this people would then deviate from the right path, which would require God to send new people from their people to warn them and guide them to the right path in the same way as it was done with the ahlul-kitab. This would again mean that Muhammad a.s. is not the first messenger sent to his people which is meaningless because the verses say the opposite.

Layth

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Salam Safe.

I agree with the logic in your argument to an extent.

That Mohammad was lost and that his people, and their fathers, did not receive any warner/messenger nor did they have a book (hence they are called "gentiles" in the Quran) is beyond doubt.

What I somewhat differ on is, if you go back far enough, there will always be a warner (Noah for example warned his people and those who survived the flood with him on this ship - and these would be our ancestors, so there was a warner at some point in time).

The people of Mohammed had some inkling to subjects such as 'Hajj' and 'Salat', yet they seem to have inherited a total mess where their Salat was just noise (8:35) and their contribution to Hajj was mainly for prestige (9:19).

My own view is that Mohammed's people inhabited the remains of the town of Lot (hence they passed by their ruins day and night 37:137-138), and that in these remains was a 'Temple' that Lot had built - along with the help of Abraham - to guide the people and act as a resting point for people on the way to the pilgrimage. This Temple is the 'Masjid Al-Haram' which provided a sanctuary to travelers, and this was why God destroyed the town of Lot, not simply because they were homosexuals, but because they were robbing the travel caravans who were on their way to the pilgrimage, and thus interfering with God's people (29:29). 

`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Safe_from_sweden

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Selam Layth

Thanks for your comment.

Just a side question. Where are the remnants of this city geographically as they passed it both day and night - where would you place it?

jkhan

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Qur'an that tells us about the people to whom the last prophet Muhammad a.s. belonged and gives us insight and information about the ancestors of his people and about Muhammad's personality before he began to receive God's proclamation. Here are verses illustrating it:
-------------------------------
12:3 We narrate to you the best stories through what We have inspired to you in this Qur'an; and before it you were of those who were unaware.

28:46 And nor were you on the side of the mount when We called. But it is a mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.

32:3 Or do they say: "He fabricated it!" No, it is the truth from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who never received a warner before you, in order that they may be guided.

34:44 We had not given to them any books to study, nor did We send to them before you any warner.

36:6 To warn a people whose fathers were not warned, for they are unaware.

42:52 And thus, We inspired to you a revelation of Our command. You did not know what was the Book, nor what was faith. Yet, We made it a light to guide whoever We wish from among Our servants. Surely, you guide to a straight path.

93:7 And He found you lost, and He guided you?
-------------------------------
The following can be summarized about Muhammad a.s. and his people from the Qur'an:

- That Muhammad, as a man before the Qur'an was completely demeaning, lost and that he had no knowledge of god-spirited writings.
- That Muhammad's people before him never had anyone else who came before to warn them and guide them in the right path.
- That the people of Muhammad had no god-spirited writings before the Qur'an.
- that to Muhammad's ancestors before him, no one came to warn them.

The Qur'an excludes any possibility that among the people of Muhammad or his ancestors there were one or more messengers of God who had previously admonisheed his people, who had previously taught them true faith, or who had previously left some god-spirited scriptures that they could follow and correct.
It seems to me that Quran rejects the claim that today's Kaaba (arabic: الكعبة al-Ka’bah, "cube") in Mecca was built by Abraham and Ishmael.
If, on the other hand, we were to accept that today's Kaaba is that house or bejt (مالبيت) from verse 2:127 built by Abraham and Ishmael, it would mean that two of God's prophets stayed and settled in the areas where Muhammad's people lived for centuries, which leads to the inevitable conclusion that two of God's prophets had a messenger's and prophetic mission among these people which would ultimately undermine verses in the Qur'an that speak of the opposite.

Hajj is something that Qur’an binds to Abraham a.s. as the messenger of God and if the Hajj would be geographically related to today's Mecca and thus to the ancestors and the people to whom Muhammad a.s. belong then it would mean that his people had the knowledge of the correct faith that they got through Ibrahim a.s. and Ismael a.s. which would be contrary to those verses which say that no one came to that people and ancestors before Muhammad a.s. Furthermore, over the course of 3,000 years, this people would then deviate from the right path, which would require God to send new people from their people to warn them and guide them to the right path in the same way as it was done with the ahlul-kitab. This would again mean that Muhammad a.s. is not the first messenger sent to his people which is meaningless because the verses say the opposite.

Peace...

Very good collection of verses to highlight your claim...  I do out and out agree with the verses and what they speak of... Compare 34:44 with  29:48...its common for Muhamed and Arabs...

But brother Layth claim gentiles is well aware to those who take Quran alone.. But of Nuh being ancestor is fair enough in a way... But if we go deep into Mohamed's society and the language it was revealed it is beyond doubt...
God claim every nation a Warner... In this case Nuh can't be taken for disclaim...
Further all major languages has its origin point...  Arabic is one of the latest languages originated within these regions either from Hebrew OR Semitic... Let it be whatever..
When it comes to every nation the key factor is language...
Was there a messenger/warner prophet for Arabs before MOHAMED.. As per Quran and the set of verses you brought it is clearly NOT...

Based on above key point... What in fact ancestors according to context... When we say our ancestors does it go beyond the birth of our own language.. That's very fragile... Every language is born with a small group originated from a major language... Thats the point of origin of a new community developing upto a nation with new language ... God created languages.... That's beyond doubt...
So ancestors can only be extended to that far... So I strongly believe God refers as ancestors to Arabs all together not those who spoke different languages by being among Arabs...
Arabs were not warned before the advent of Quran through Mohamed....

But note.. In general out of context.. Ancestor could be father grand great etc and even all community of human.. Nuh even Adam..
But within context of those verses the ancestors were Arabs... They were not warned through revealed book from God...
But the people who lived before Arabs in the same place may have been warned... But not Arabs...


good logic

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Peace Safe_from_sweden
May I take few of your points and comment on them:

1-- That Muhammad, as a man before the Qur'an was completely demeaning, lost and that he had no knowledge of god-spirited writings.

 My comment: He may have  been lost even with knowledge of god spirited writings. I was lost few years ago( I may still be lost even though I am trying my best to reflect and study!) yet I knew some of my bible and read some of the Qoran. One can get lost following false religions easily.

2-- That Muhammad's people before him never had anyone else who came before to warn them and guide them in the right path.
 
My comment: I agree about his generation , he came to warn them. How far down the line can one go in generations not warned? Up to Ishmail or even Abraham?People corrupt the religion even within the same generation and especially with time.

3-- That the people of Muhammad had no god-spirited writings before the Qur'an.

My comments: Surely some knew of Jews and Christians and their books, they lived with them? The Arabs had their own corrupted version of a religion that they choose to adhere to rather than follow others.Remember they put their foot down even with Mohammed! Some were doing the salat (A corruupted version according to Qoran)

4-- that to Muhammad's ancestors before him, no one came to warn them.

My comments: This is an assumption unless one provides the history to back up the statement.. Would Noah qualify as their ancestor? Or Abraham/ Oa Ishmail?...

My view is that Qoran was talking about the living generation of the messenger. Also which messenger ? Are the verses talking only about Mohammed? Look at these verses ,who is the messenger here:

O people of the scripture, our messenger has come to you to proclaim for you many things you have concealed in the scripture, and to pardon many other transgressions you have committed. A beacon has come to you from God, and a profound scripture.
يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ قَد جاءَكُم رَسولُنا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُم كَثيرًا مِمّا كُنتُم تُخفونَ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَيَعفوا عَن كَثيرٍ قَد جاءَكُم مِنَ اللَّهِ نورٌ وَكِتٰبٌ مُبينٌ

O people of the scripture, our messenger has come to you, to explain things to you, after a period of time without messengers, lest you say, "We did not receive any preacher or warner." A preacher and warner has now come to you. God is Omnipotent.*
يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ قَد جاءَكُم رَسولُنا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُم عَلىٰ فَترَةٍ مِنَ الرُّسُلِ أَن تَقولوا ما جاءَنا مِن بَشيرٍ وَلا نَذيرٍ فَقَد جاءَكُم بَشيرٌ وَنَذيرٌ وَاللَّهُ عَلىٰ كُلِّ شَىءٍ قَديرٌ

Indeed after a time of few generations GOD renews His message according to His knowledge of where they are with His last message to any people anywhere regardless of what their ancestors have received..
GOD said He will keep sending messengers to Beni Adam as long as there is Beni Adam on earth.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Safe_from_sweden

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I humbly thank you for your comments, may God expand your knowledge.

In light of this theme, I came up with another follow-up question. For me, verses are clear in their message however it raises other thoughts that require answers. The Arabs, although if we assume that they are descended from the bloodline of Ismael a.s., for 3000 years did not have a prophet before Muhammad a.s. but the question is why was it so.

What's the reason for that?

One explanation may lie in that they were small tribes that were on foot all the time – nomads (mobile tribes). They did not live in cities and were not a homogeneous composite ethnic group until a few hundred years before Muhammad a.s. This brings me to the next logical question: if they were not cohesive for so many years and were constantly on the move as nomads and that they began to form as a ethnic group a few generations before the last prophet's time how can one claim that the Kaaba and hajj have something to do with them if the hajj is linked to Ibrahim's a.s. time since 4000 years back in time?

The Qur'an uses 57 times the root qaf-ra-ra as from which the word el-qurā comes from and which means cities or larger communities. The verse in 6:131 says

"That is because your Lord was not to destroy any towns (el-qurā) because of its wickedness while its people were unaware (gafilun)."

We see the context now: God's prophets are always sent to people in cities or larger communities who are unaware (gafilun) of what they do.

Only then they will be punished if, after warning and clear evidence, if they deliberately ignore the message. This is also evidence that the Arabs did not meet the condition of receiving a warner among them during the time when they were small, separated, traveling tribes until they began to group themselves into larger communities in a fixed place (city).

But what's the deal with Mecca and Kaaba?

Purely qur'anic, Mecca as the name is only once named in the Qur'an and it is in verse 48:24 that is about battle.

”And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca (bi batni mekkete), after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.”

As for the Kaaba, the Quran refers to it in total three times in the same chapter Al-Maida using verses 6, 95 and 97. These verses have nothing to do with hajj because the word hajj is not added at all here. On the other hand, in verses that speak of the hajj in Qur'an, neither Mecca nor Kaaba is used as word expression.

My initial thought is that Arabs, given their longstanding travel in history, were influenced by the rituals of other peoples and they began to apply these rituals in their great communities to worship their own gods. Their rituals have nothing to do with the original hajj that Ibrahim was instructed to do because nowhere in the Qur'an is referred to as the hajj along with the Kaaba or Mecca.

good logic

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Peace. Safe_from_sweden

Here are some verses to ponder about Abraham and "Hajj": And what was decreed through Abraham?

Surely, those who disbelieve and repulse others from the path of God, and from the Sacred Masjid that we designated for all the people - be they natives or visitors - and seek to pollute it and corrupt it, we will afflict them with painful retribution.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ كَفَروا وَيَصُدّونَ عَن سَبيلِ اللَّهِ وَالمَسجِدِ الحَرامِ الَّذى جَعَلنٰهُ لِلنّاسِ سَواءً العٰكِفُ فيهِ وَالبادِ وَمَن يُرِد فيهِ بِإِلحادٍ بِظُلمٍ نُذِقهُ مِن عَذابٍ أَليمٍ

We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine: "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.
وَإِذ بَوَّأنا لِإِبرٰهيمَ مَكانَ البَيتِ أَن لا تُشرِك بى شَيـًٔا وَطَهِّر بَيتِىَ لِلطّائِفينَ وَالقائِمينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجودِ
"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj . They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
وَأَذِّن فِى النّاسِ بِالحَجِّ يَأتوكَ رِجالًا وَعَلىٰ كُلِّ ضامِرٍ يَأتينَ مِن كُلِّ فَجٍّ عَميقٍ

They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate God's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."
لِيَشهَدوا مَنٰفِعَ لَهُم وَيَذكُرُوا اسمَ اللَّهِ فى أَيّامٍ مَعلومٰتٍ عَلىٰ ما رَزَقَهُم مِن بَهيمَةِ الأَنعٰمِ فَكُلوا مِنها وَأَطعِمُوا البائِسَ الفَقيرَ
They shall complete their obligations, fulfill their vows, and visit the ancient shrine.
ثُمَّ ليَقضوا تَفَثَهُم وَليوفوا نُذورَهُم وَليَطَّوَّفوا بِالبَيتِ العَتيقِ

Those who reverence the rites decreed by God have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness.
ذٰلِكَ وَمَن يُعَظِّم حُرُمٰتِ اللَّهِ فَهُوَ خَيرٌ لَهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَأُحِلَّت لَكُمُ الأَنعٰمُ إِلّا ما يُتلىٰ عَلَيكُم فَاجتَنِبُوا الرِّجسَ مِنَ الأَوثٰنِ وَاجتَنِبوا قَولَ الزّورِ
You shall maintain your devotion absolutely to God alone. Anyone who sets up any idol beside God is like one who fell from the sky, then gets snatched up by vultures, or blown away by the wind into a deep ravine.
حُنَفاءَ لِلَّهِ غَيرَ مُشرِكينَ بِهِ وَمَن يُشرِك بِاللَّهِ فَكَأَنَّما خَرَّ مِنَ السَّماءِ فَتَخطَفُهُ الطَّيرُ أَو تَهوى بِهِ الرّيحُ فى مَكانٍ سَحيقٍ
Indeed, those who reverence the rites decreed by God demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts.
ذٰلِكَ وَمَن يُعَظِّم شَعٰئِرَ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّها مِن تَقوَى القُلوبِ

The (livestock) provide you with many benefits for a period, before being donated to the ancient shrine.
لَكُم فيها مَنٰفِعُ إِلىٰ أَجَلٍ مُسَمًّى ثُمَّ مَحِلُّها إِلَى البَيتِ العَتيقِ
For each congregation we have decreed rites whereby they commemorate the name of God for providing them with the livestock. Your God is one and the same God; you shall all submit to Him. Give good news to the obedient.
وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ جَعَلنا مَنسَكًا لِيَذكُرُوا اسمَ اللَّهِ عَلىٰ ما رَزَقَهُم مِن بَهيمَةِ الأَنعٰمِ فَإِلٰهُكُم إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ فَلَهُ أَسلِموا وَبَشِّرِ المُخبِتينَ

GOD bless you.
Peace.
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jkhan

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I humbly thank you for your comments, may God expand your knowledge.

In light of this theme, I came up with another follow-up question. For me, verses are clear in their message however it raises other thoughts that require answers. The Arabs, although if we assume that they are descended from the bloodline of Ismael a.s., for 3000 years did not have a prophet before Muhammad a.s. but the question is why was it so.

What's the reason for that?

One explanation may lie in that they were small tribes that were on foot all the time – nomads (mobile tribes). They did not live in cities and were not a homogeneous composite ethnic group until a few hundred years before Muhammad a.s. This brings me to the next logical question: if they were not cohesive for so many years and were constantly on the move as nomads and that they began to form as a ethnic group a few generations before the last prophet's time how can one claim that the Kaaba and hajj have something to do with them if the hajj is linked to Ibrahim's a.s. time since 4000 years back in time?

The Qur'an uses 57 times the root qaf-ra-ra as from which the word el-qurā comes from and which means cities or larger communities. The verse in 6:131 says

"That is because your Lord was not to destroy any towns (el-qurā) because of its wickedness while its people were unaware (gafilun)."

We see the context now: God's prophets are always sent to people in cities or larger communities who are unaware (gafilun) of what they do.

Only then they will be punished if, after warning and clear evidence, if they deliberately ignore the message. This is also evidence that the Arabs did not meet the condition of receiving a warner among them during the time when they were small, separated, traveling tribes until they began to group themselves into larger communities in a fixed place (city).

But what's the deal with Mecca and Kaaba?

Purely qur'anic, Mecca as the name is only once named in the Qur'an and it is in verse 48:24 that is about battle.

”And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca (bi batni mekkete), after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.”

As for the Kaaba, the Quran refers to it in total three times in the same chapter Al-Maida using verses 6, 95 and 97. These verses have nothing to do with hajj because the word hajj is not added at all here. On the other hand, in verses that speak of the hajj in Qur'an, neither Mecca nor Kaaba is used as word expression.

My initial thought is that Arabs, given their longstanding travel in history, were influenced by the rituals of other peoples and they began to apply these rituals in their great communities to worship their own gods. Their rituals have nothing to do with the original hajj that Ibrahim was instructed to do because nowhere in the Qur'an is referred to as the hajj along with the Kaaba or Mecca.

Peace...

Current day mecca and what is practiced out there is totally irrelevant what is instructed in Quran... That's a big topic...

When it comes to forefathers not warned it is very clear the Arabs before Quran  were not warned and they never had Warner or not a Prophet or book..

That clarifies verse for example ... 34:44 "We had not given to them any BOOKS to STUDY, nor did We send to them BEFORE YOU any WARNER"

this verse connot be applied to the nations and communities which received books and Warners.. Isn't it..  So God definitely addressing a particular community that is Arabs... They were not warned..
But somehow the Arabs who were not warned were living in the heart of towns while the Quran was delivered...
42:7 "We have revealed the Quran to you in the Arabic language so that you could warn the people of the Mother of Towns and those around it of the inevitable Day of Resurrection when some will go to Paradise and others to hell."

Mother of towns deserves its quality to be called so... As you all know current day Macca doesn't deserve it... Unless you bring evidence... That's far from reslity.

They were living within mother of towns and still not being aware of any previous scriptures and no Warner came to them.. That makes the difference.. Coz it indicates Arabs were pretty much new nation with new language in the region and seems occupied once deserted city (mother of towns) and not far from Israel either... And then spread throughout and overtook all other languages in the region

But for your topic.. Makka has no connection if you meticulously explore QURAN... Current day mecca is just invention... And absolute idol worshiping  ....

Finally there is nothing contradictory by God's saying that forefathers not warned... In fact not warned..
Purpose of haj from Ibrahim to Mohamed is literally over... There were a period before Ibrahim without haj and a period after Mohamed without haj...
Without knowing where is masjid Al haram and ancient house which Ibrahim built , how can there be haj ? ..

17:36 "And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned."

Do any one have knowledge where ancient house is?  Even though one has, you won't find the ancient house there now .. That tells no haj for us now

Layth

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Salam Safe,

Quote
Just a side question. Where are the remnants of this city geographically as they passed it both day and night - where would you place it?

I would place the city of Mekka mentioned in the Qur'an either as the Nabataen city of "Petra" or the Nabataen city of "Madain Saleh", for the following reasons:

- The Nabataens are the original developers of the Arabic language - a point which is repeated several times (an Arabic Quran);
- The gods of the Nabataen (Laat & Uzza) are mentioned by name in the Quran as being the deities of Mohammad's people;
- Both Nabataen cities are in a valley devoid of agriculture/vegetation;
- Both Nabataen cities have remain of the ancient civilization that lived there (carved homes/palaces);
- Both Nabataen cities are on a trade route - which would fit in with the purpose of Lot establishing the city to assist people getting to the pilgrimage site;
- Both Nabataen cities were under Roman rule during the time of Mohammed - linking well with the migration of Mohammad and his conflict with Rome;
- Both Nabataen cities would have had Christian (Roman) and Jewish temples - in-line with Quran's reference to the "people of the Book".

Finally, I would point out that Petra is recorded as being an ancient city dating back to the times of Moses, while Mekka (Arabia) cannot be found on any maps or in any writings prior to 700A.D.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Cerberus

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Most of the above stands true for the current Makkah.
I understand not considering hadiths as having any religious authority but to disregard them as providing historical accounts with specific details ?
The burden of proof is much much greater for anyone to claim that a city is not who it is known to be. Specially with islamic historians and the hadiths in general being a thing, and not just ignored.



Layth

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Salam,

Quote
Most of the above stands true for the current Makkah.
I understand not considering hadiths as having any religious authority but to disregard them as providing historical accounts with specific details ?
The burden of proof is much much greater for anyone to claim that a city is not who it is known to be. Specially with islamic historians and the hadiths in general being a thing, and not just ignored

Yes, Makkah (Arabia) also agrees to an extent. The bigger issue is not whether Makka is Makka (Arabia) or Petra or Medain Saleh - rather, it is that conclusively Makka (of the Quran) and Bacca (of the Quran) are not the same place.

The place where Lot lived is the same place where Mohammad's people were located...

The place where Abraham lived, was some distance away and was where the Pilgrimage was held.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Layth

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Just to add one more point I forgot. According to Meccan tradition (not a reliable source) there was an attack by birds carrying meteors on Mecca prior to the birth of Mohammed (it is claimed this is the reference in chapter 105).

What I find interesting is that the “fiery rocks” referenced in chapter 105 are the same “fiery rocks” used to destroy the town of Lot (15:74, 11:82). Could this tradition be a memory of the destruction of the town - simply misplaced in its time-line & audience?
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Wakas

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peace Safe,

I have read this argument before but it could be said Abraham's people died out or moved on eventually and a new people (i.e. Muhammad's ancestors) began to live in that region.

Dan Gibson has a lot of info on the petra/mecca issue.

Personally I do not find a specific location as necessary. Prophet Muhammad it seems was instructed to follow the exemplar/blueprint of Abraham, see:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Safe_from_sweden

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I came across this site http://nantt44.unblog.fr/2019/02/21/chapter-viii-betius-charmutha-arabia-felix-and-the-climatic-change/ which is very interesting. Among other things, many interesting conclusions are mentioned. Especially the map is interesting. I have not gone further to investigate how much credibility there is in these ancient maps but if it is true then it supports what is mentioned in verses 37: 137-138 "they passed by their ruins day and night".