Author Topic: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan  (Read 3473 times)

Enquiry

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Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« on: May 12, 2020, 05:30:07 PM »
Peace,

Hope everyone is well! I have a question. In my deen, there is always one part, one place that someone can put me in my place and I don't know what to answer.
And that's the question of hell and heaven. Hassan Redwan is an ex-muslim. I hate how logical he sounds in his videos lol. I went through the steps:
- God creates mankind
- God asks if mankind wants free will
- We accept, and now we transgressed.
- God sends us down makes us witness that he is the only God
- On earth, some of us remember this and some of us choose to ignore it.
- Those who remember and act will go to heaven, those who ignore and act opposite the message of God will go to hell.

A part of these steps elude me: Parties engaging a contract must be aware of the consequences of breaching the contract. Did God ask: Do u want to be created? If so, then these are the rules and consequences. But I will ignore this fact, and say: Well, if one is created, one is in eternal bliss if he or she is in the presence of God, why would you aks? Can't you see that it is His infinite mercy and gift?

How on earth can we answer the hell-forever part? The eternal hell. The only time I can justify hell if one of us AGREED to be created and AGREED to participate in God's trial.

This guy has lots of questions about God's punishment in his 3 min video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtTwYL2t8J0&list=UUJ0sIFZ0VnZ5ta9vxC9PyUA&index=22

Please see this video, and if you can share your opinion/facts.


Peace


huruf

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2020, 11:42:31 PM »
Only God is eternal, there is nothing like Him, and everything and everyone returns to Him.

It is in a sense rediculous that we pontificte on nothing less than Eternity. We are not even able to conceive of such a thing. It is a thought concept but that we do not conceive.

On the other hand God is al 3adl, the Justice. That is one of His names in the Qur'an. Suppose the worst person ever to exist. Suppose that person lived 150 years. ¿What kind of justice is that that for a time of 150 and fifty years punishes you, not one hundred and fifty years, but forever? I douvt that even bad person would even think of doing that to anybody. And we attribute that to God, keep saying that He is compassionate, and think that it is sound? Not even the worst kind would conceive of tormenting to such glactic magnitude, but we hang it on God. .

No wonder that kind of mentality puts off anybody.

Salaam

Jafar

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2020, 02:30:55 AM »
The infinite Creator do not put or forced any of His children to "hell".
It's actually the children that sometimes prefer "hell" as he sees "hell" as "heaven" for him.

In the same manner as no parent will ever punished their own children with "drug addiction", it's the children who often sees "drug addiction" as heaven and uses the allowance he got from his parent to buy drugs.

Jesus did explained this in a beautiful manner using a parable:

Parable of the Prodigal Son

“There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them. Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living.

After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ So he got up and went to his father.

But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate!"







good logic

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2020, 07:34:34 AM »
GOD did not create Mankind.
First GOD created souls to earn their destiny.GOD did not create souls with His chosen destiny for them. i.e "robots" ,
With this freedom comes the consequence.
After the feud between the souls(because of this freedom ). The rebelious ones(Not accepted GOD s authority) were gathered and given a second chance  to redeem themselves
This is when all the souls were seperated into different groups (stratified0:
Angels.(Did not take part in the rebellion)
Animmals/other creations.
Humans
Jinns

The Amana was again given to the rebeliuos souls as a final chance . Humans and Jinns accepted it  The other rebelious souls rejected free will and decided to repent and redeem themselves.
GOD  made a covenant with Mankind which they agreed to-GOD Alone as authority- The main issue of the rebellion earlier.
GOD then created Mankind and created the universe and provided the earth for them as a place for this final chance .
Here we are again shaping/earning our destiny.
 The million dollar question:
Why would GOD choose for His creation?
The fair way is for you and I and everyone else to put ourselves where we deserve to be. So long as we are aware of the rules consequences.. Those whose life has been cut short before the age of responsibility or are not capable have already declined the amana and are redeemed.
GOD does not put anyone anywhere they do not want to be. We put ourselves where we deserve to be.
GOD is Merciful and would prefer everyone to be redeemed back to His kingdom.
GOD bless.
Peace
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

Layth

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2020, 10:47:47 PM »
Salam Enquiry,

The question of God sending people to Hell is a very relevant one that deters many people from accepting religion (any religion) as they figure that a God that punishes people simply for not worshiping/serving Him cannot be all that good!

I would ask that you read the below article on Hell which might change the entire perspective of the discussion:

https://www.free-minds.org/judgement-day-hell-earth
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Enquiry

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2020, 12:10:10 AM »
Only God is eternal, there is nothing like Him, and everything and everyone returns to Him.

It is in a sense rediculous that we pontificte on nothing less than Eternity. We are not even able to conceive of such a thing. It is a thought concept but that we do not conceive.

On the other hand God is al 3adl, the Justice. That is one of His names in the Qur'an. Suppose the worst person ever to exist. Suppose that person lived 150 years. ¿What kind of justice is that that for a time of 150 and fifty years punishes you, not one hundred and fifty years, but forever? I douvt that even bad person would even think of doing that to anybody. And we attribute that to God, keep saying that He is compassionate, and think that it is sound? Not even the worst kind would conceive of tormenting to such glactic magnitude, but we hang it on God. .

No wonder that kind of mentality puts off anybody.

Salaam

Peace Huruf,

Thank you so much for your input. I love your description of God. We are truly incapable of understanding Him. Let us hope that He will grace us with Hs infinite mercy and protection.

Peace.

Enquiry

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2020, 12:15:30 AM »
The infinite Creator do not put or forced any of His children to "hell".
It's actually the children that sometimes prefer "hell" as he sees "hell" as "heaven" for him.

In the same manner as no parent will ever punished their own children with "drug addiction", it's the children who often sees "drug addiction" as heaven and uses the allowance he got from his parent to buy drugs.

Jesus did explained this in a beautiful manner using a parable:

Parable of the Prodigal Son

“There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them. Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living.

After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ So he got up and went to his father.

But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate!"


Peace Jafar,

Thank you for ur valuable and note worthy verses. I love how we all from different backgrounds are always working hard in gaining knowledge in understanding God. May we all be in jubilation on the J-Day.

Peace.

Enquiry

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2020, 12:19:54 AM »
GOD did not create Mankind.
First GOD created souls to earn their destiny.GOD did not create souls with His chosen destiny for them. i.e "robots" ,
With this freedom comes the consequence.
After the feud between the souls(because of this freedom ). The rebelious ones(Not accepted GOD s authority) were gathered and given a second chance  to redeem themselves
This is when all the souls were seperated into different groups (stratified0:
Angels.(Did not take part in the rebellion)
Animmals/other creations.
Humans
Jinns

The Amana was again given to the rebeliuos souls as a final chance . Humans and Jinns accepted it  The other rebelious souls rejected free will and decided to repent and redeem themselves.
GOD  made a covenant with Mankind which they agreed to-GOD Alone as authority- The main issue of the rebellion earlier.
GOD then created Mankind and created the universe and provided the earth for them as a place for this final chance .
Here we are again shaping/earning our destiny.
 The million dollar question:
Why would GOD choose for His creation?
The fair way is for you and I and everyone else to put ourselves where we deserve to be. So long as we are aware of the rules consequences.. Those whose life has been cut short before the age of responsibility or are not capable have already declined the amana and are redeemed.
GOD does not put anyone anywhere they do not want to be. We put ourselves where we deserve to be.
GOD is Merciful and would prefer everyone to be redeemed back to His kingdom.
GOD bless.
Peace

Peace Good logic,

Thank you for your viewpoint. Your analysis is correct in many ways. The one sentence that struck a chord with me was:  "We put ourselves where we deserve to be."
It's very scary sometimes how lost we can get, and we don't even perceive it. Hopefully God will give each and everyone of us the strength to do the right thing.

Peace.

Enquiry

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2020, 12:33:01 AM »
Salam Enquiry,

The question of God sending people to Hell is a very relevant one that deters many people from accepting religion (any religion) as they figure that a God that punishes people simply for not worshiping/serving Him cannot be all that good!

I would ask that you read the below article on Hell which might change the entire perspective of the discussion:

https://www.free-minds.org/judgement-day-hell-earth

Peace Layth,

Thank you so much for your link. I did check it out. I must say that it is quite frightening on reading the descriptions of J-Day. It boils down to "God will not save the arrogant, wicked, selfish, unthankful who serve others besides Him…Rather, He will save the kind, humble, generous, and thankful who acknowledge Him and only Him as the One true Lord and Master.

May God shield us and our progeny from the horrors of the inevitable Day…"

Let us hope we'll be the righteous ones and deserving of His protection.


Peace.

Jafar

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2020, 12:58:39 AM »
Thank you for ur valuable and note worthy verses. I love how we all from different backgrounds are always working hard in gaining knowledge in understanding God. May we all be in jubilation on the J-Day.

You're welcome

God was, is and will always gives you strength and guidance.
No matter what you do, right or wrong, and there's no end.
It's sometimes you who decided to refuse and block the strength and guidance.

Coming back to the 'drug addicted child' metaphor, understand that the pattern of the 'drug dealer' is always consistent, they employ PRIDE, LIES, GUILT and FEAR to maintain the illusion. In order to keep the drug addicted child from returning to his father, the drug dealer will instill the following dogmas:

1. You are much better than everyone else, you're among the 'chosen people' who can enjoy the privilege of drugs. Your life is heaven you're are walking the 'straight path' where others are 'lead astray'. PRIDE + LIES

2. You have performed 'unforgivable sins' to your father, because you've wasted your allowances not on books and university fee as you have told him but on drugs instead! GUILT

3. Don't leave us and return back to your father, Your father will judge you and torture you with horrible punishment until all eternity because you've lied to him and performed horrible and unforgivable sins. GUILT + LIES + FEAR

Only through conquering his fear and shedding his own pride, the child will be able to cut through the illusion created by the drug dealer. His father will always awaited his return home and always ready to forgive him and accept him back, no matter how long he need to wait : 1 year, 100 years, 10,000 years, 1 billion years. There's no end.
That's an example of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE of parenthood.


huruf

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2020, 03:07:33 AM »
Thank you, Enquiry, for your politeness and interest.

This is one question where, I feel, we are put on the spot for answering things which we cannot know. We all will get Justice, let us pray that we also get compassion. For one Justice cannot wrong anybody. It would be emotionnally inadmissible that people who have suffered very much from wrongs or perscution, should not be after death get a redressing, a tender embrace which tells them that they will not suffer any more, that all that is behind, that life will be tender and beautiful after that.
As to the persecutors and evil, Justice will pour on them what they have poured on others till they know what Justice is, Justice is knowledge and understanding that nothing that we issue will not come bac to us, either on this life or in the next. Can the realisation of one's own evil take eternity? No sould can survive that. Compassion, Peace, As-Salaam is another name of God, through justice will come peace, Salaam, we pay our debts, we get the return of our own eel so we can cleanse ourselves. Better do it in this life, because our hell, the one we have erected for ourselves, is no joke, even if it lasts but ten minutes.

May God, redeem us in this life and ask his forgiveness, for all and all is creatures.

Salaam 

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2020, 06:41:38 PM »
Peace Enquiry,

Hope everyone is well! I have a question. In my deen, there is always one part, one place that someone can put me in my place and I don't know what to answer.

I am not sure what you mean by "deen". It is a common noun that should be translated. It means obligation. Our only obligation is peacemaking.

Quote
And that's the question of hell and heaven. Hassan Redwan is an ex-muslim. I hate how logical he sounds in his videos lol. I went through the steps:
- God creates mankind
- God asks if mankind wants free will

Everything in the universe has free will. The trust was offered to everything in the heavens and the earth and they CHOSE to not accept it while mankind CHOSE to accept it. So everything had free will and it was certainly not what was offered.

Quote
- We accept, and now we transgressed.

We transgressed by allowing our fantasy (jinn) to control us instead of us controlling it and making it submit like it was supposed to. While the fantasy is our creative force, it is also the only source of falsehood in the universe. Thus we transgressed against the truth. The god is the truth.

Quote
- God sends us down makes us witness that he is the only God
- On earth, some of us remember this and some of us choose to ignore it.

Some of us make their fantasy submit to them while most of us follow their fantasies. Those who remember the truth and make their fantasy (the only source of falsehood) submit to them naturally serve the truth (the god).

We accepted to be leaders of the earth. We are not very good leaders of the earth if she shed blood instead of make peace (our true obligation).

Quote
- Those who remember and act will go to heaven, those who ignore and act opposite the message of God will go to hell.

Those who remember and control their fantasy and make it submit, their fantasy will be given water (life) and those who ignore and are controlled by their fantasy will be stuck in the worst thing they can fantasize (hell).   

Quote
A part of these steps elude me: Parties engaging a contract must be aware of the consequences of breaching the contract. Did God ask: Do u want to be created? If so, then these are the rules and consequences. But I will ignore this fact, and say: Well, if one is created, one is in eternal bliss if he or she is in the presence of God, why would you aks? Can't you see that it is His infinite mercy and gift?

Everything in the universe is created with the truth. So naturally (contract or not) we are to serve the truth. A natural rule that goes without saying is that we should not serve falsehood. The human fantasy is the only source of falsehood in the universe. We serve the truth by making our fantasy (jinn) submit to us like it was supposed to the first time.
 
Quote
How on earth can we answer the hell-forever part? The eternal hell. The only time I can justify hell if one of us AGREED to be created and AGREED to participate in God's trial.

Hell is fueled by the fantasies (jinn). It is a state and is not an actual physical place. It is a state of remaining stuck in our worst fantasies and we are unable to move to the next phase of creation since the god creates only with the truth. In the new phase of creation, the good fantasies that submitted to us will be given water (the ingredient of life) and will  become new life forms (call this heaven). This is all natural and expected.

Those stuck in this state will remain as long as the heavens and earth remain. Again, this is natural since the heavens and earth were created with the truth and bad false fantasies cannot be given life in the god's creation:

16:3. He created the heavens and the earth with the truth be he exalted above what they set as partner 

Peace,

Ayman

youmu

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2020, 02:51:39 AM »
strawman argument that,
if you can show me an instance of god asking us if we want free will please do.
at least i've never found it.
as far as i understand everything has free will. especially angels/controllers
tell me what God said to heavens and the earth when he created them.
فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ ائْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ
41:11
also
the main contract i know of is if we are believers and do good work (basically being mature) then we will go to heaven. but if we are not, hell is the place.

as for forever hell part
i guess that's the severity of our job
being خليفة في الارض
we don't do stuff on whims and desires. we do them with truth.


- God creates mankind
- we are his servants willingly or not.
- we trangress but he also forgives.
- god sends us down so we'll be mature.

 وَأَنَّا لَا نَدْرِي أَشَرٌّ أُرِيدَ بِمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ أَمْ أَرَادَ بِهِمْ رَبُّهُمْ رَشَدًا
72:10

- on earth some us want to be mature, but some don't even take that into consideration. that's basically trangression.
- God owns the day of the judgement. and he told us how to get into heaven.


Enquiry

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2020, 12:52:14 PM »
Peace Enquiry,

I am not sure what you mean by "deen". It is a common noun that should be translated. It means obligation. Our only obligation is peacemaking.

Everything in the universe has free will. The trust was offered to everything in the heavens and the earth and they CHOSE to not accept it while mankind CHOSE to accept it. So everything had free will and it was certainly not what was offered.

We transgressed by allowing our fantasy (jinn) to control us instead of us controlling it and making it submit like it was supposed to. While the fantasy is our creative force, it is also the only source of falsehood in the universe. Thus we transgressed against the truth. The god is the truth.

Some of us make their fantasy submit to them while most of us follow their fantasies. Those who remember the truth and make their fantasy (the only source of falsehood) submit to them naturally serve the truth (the god).

We accepted to be leaders of the earth. We are not very good leaders of the earth if she shed blood instead of make peace (our true obligation).

Those who remember and control their fantasy and make it submit, their fantasy will be given water (life) and those who ignore and are controlled by their fantasy will be stuck in the worst thing they can fantasize (hell).   

Everything in the universe is created with the truth. So naturally (contract or not) we are to serve the truth. A natural rule that goes without saying is that we should not serve falsehood. The human fantasy is the only source of falsehood in the universe. We serve the truth by making our fantasy (jinn) submit to us like it was supposed to the first time.
 
Hell is fueled by the fantasies (jinn). It is a state and is not an actual physical place. It is a state of remaining stuck in our worst fantasies and we are unable to move to the next phase of creation since the god creates only with the truth. In the new phase of creation, the good fantasies that submitted to us will be given water (the ingredient of life) and will  become new life forms (call this heaven). This is all natural and expected.

Those stuck in this state will remain as long as the heavens and earth remain. Again, this is natural since the heavens and earth were created with the truth and bad false fantasies cannot be given life in the god's creation:

16:3. He created the heavens and the earth with the truth be he exalted above what they set as partner 

Peace,

Ayman

Salam brother Ayman,

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer these questions. They can be tricky and complicated sometimes. Your perspective on this issue is certainly interesting.

Peace

Enquiry

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2020, 12:56:43 PM »
strawman argument that,
if you can show me an instance of god asking us if we want free will please do.
at least i've never found it.
as far as i understand everything has free will. especially angels/controllers
tell me what God said to heavens and the earth when he created them.
فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ ائْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ
41:11
also
the main contract i know of is if we are believers and do good work (basically being mature) then we will go to heaven. but if we are not, hell is the place.

as for forever hell part
i guess that's the severity of our job
being خليفة في الارض
we don't do stuff on whims and desires. we do them with truth.


- God creates mankind
- we are his servants willingly or not.
- we trangress but he also forgives.
- god sends us down so we'll be mature.

 وَأَنَّا لَا نَدْرِي أَشَرٌّ أُرِيدَ بِمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ أَمْ أَرَادَ بِهِمْ رَبُّهُمْ رَشَدًا
72:10

- on earth some us want to be mature, but some don't even take that into consideration. that's basically trangression.
- God owns the day of the judgement. and he told us how to get into heaven.

Peace Youmu,

Thank you for your perspective on this issue. Debating this topic can get very tedious and with lots of details. But people like Redwan, they don't really deal with nuances and details. They're very straight to the point: Why would God create a being, knowing its going to Hell...FOREVER? It's only in this regard that even the most experienced (in knowledge about God's system) have hard time explaining.

Thank you

Peace

good logic

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2020, 03:25:06 PM »
Peace All.
i want to attempt to answer this quote:
"Why would God create a being, knowing its going to Hell...FOREVER? It's only in this regard that even the most experienced (in knowledge about God's system) have hard time explaining."

 Or at least explain this from my understanding of Qoran s point of view on this subject .
To do this, I will start by posing some relevant questions.
-Why does GOD create anything at all?
-What does GOD create?
-What are the possibilities available for the created?

Qoran tells us that GOD has a reason/or reasons for creating, we may not know all of them but we know that GOD  has all the right reasons through GOD s attributes.
All creations go through experiences. How many is also unknown to us. But this present experience we are having is as "humans".Qoran tells us we had an experience as" another type of creation" before this.
This means that we did not stay in that experience for ever. So how long is our forever for "hell"?
[f GOD created everything to go to "heaven for ever" and there was another possibility/choice,then GOD would have  given everything one experience only and simply means that GOD has created "robots" and all were forced all to "go to heaven"..

Qoran tells us that we are well equipped to go through this human experience. He has prepare us well with a brain,eyes ears and gave us an instinct to recognise good and evil. He also sent us a message explaining the rules and has detailed for us the two ways we are free to choose:
Hell Or Heaven.
We have no idea what they will be like in reality nor what is their eternity. GOD has a very good reason for doing this. Our past experience has got us here , this new experience and we move on to our next experience.
So we need to make our own choice, The way is clear and so is the warning of the wrong choice.

To me, GOD created beings to have their own experience going through the different phases of where they put themselves through each category.
We do not know what hell is really like and we do not know how long is forever. But GOD wants to spare us that difficult experience that some of us will  put themselves in.
It is up to us to skip that "horrible experience" as allegorically described and choose the other alternative .
All we know is that we cannot say we have not been warned.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
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imrankhawaja

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2020, 06:05:35 PM »
The concept of HELL is interconnected with the factor of FEAR and CONTROLLING.

Its interesting when we examine it under different situations lem me explain by a situation in hand.

There are 6 people, 5 on one side and 1 on other side of a ROD/STICK/WIRE. And all of it is controlled by a CONTROLLER.

Now there is a choice to save one side whichever you wana save?
Most probablly controller try to save the 5 people side sacrificing one of them.

If controller have a choice to save both sides he will do it without thinking a second.

All nations and all religions and their models of hell will b filled by the opposite party.

Examples are like this majority will gona go to hell.

NOW seeing everything before it happened and create a situation in which not only 5 but perhaps more than 5 billion trillion will go to hell does it make sense? For someone who can fully control the situation, or if its a faulty creation he can stop creating it first hand? In this way he can save billions?

These question are signs to re-think about WHAT creator really will do VS what people/books said creator will do?

good logic

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2020, 08:28:41 AM »
The concept of hell is no different from the concept of other experiences  like this life experience.

How do we know that GOD has not warned us in our past experience about this life?
Or simply we cannot remember?
Let s say GOD has warned us about this experience in our past life,what would the warning be like?
I would say similar to what hell is described to us now to the majority. Are not the majority living a "hell like" life?

May be the Angels have saved themselves from this experience?
It seems  they have since they are having a different experience,why not?

What about the animals and other creations? Why are they in  a different experience in this life than us humans? 
There must be a good reason for it if we believe GOD is just and fair.

We need to reflect on two things:
1- Is there a way out of the "hell" experience?
2-Why worry or fear then?
GOD bless.
Peace.
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imrankhawaja

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2020, 02:31:57 PM »
Its not that simple how it looks i struggle myself figuring out that concept.

As i was telling earlier examine a situation can help solving lot of things.

Another situation imagine XYZ a source of creation, created something like his art work to place a conscious soul by his own master source.

Now the source of creation somehow or other interlinked with creation itself hence putting the creation in hell means source will also experience at more higher level the law of pain/suffering.

Example parents and kids are connected through a liquid and in their mind they are very connected with each other upon mistake a father burn his kid and then he may not feel physical pain but mentally he will struggle thinking his kid is burning and its he who let him burn. Its he who bring him in this world at first hand.

@ role of creator and what people said about creator love his creation way more than worldly parents and connected way more detailed than worldly parent so will creator also suffer through what he creates at first place?

I have a body my body is like a full universe and pain in one part of my body keep my whole body at suffer/un-REST mode. Some of my body parts do mistakes and will i able To punish my body parts with fire? As you taking steps further the only thing left behind is source of creation in end. it appears creator himself punishing his interconnected parts in fire that does not really make sense?

Source of everything ended in him so lets rewind
STAGES

 human => parents => evolution stages ======>single cell ====> planet===>universe ===>unknown stages and unknown material =====> finally source of creation
 
The ending of everything leads to its source so how its possible source can punish his own creation/ideas/spirt/rooh whatever stoke u wana play.


NOTE things about past life or what we dnt remember does not really matter as the source of creation remembers it all. Actual responsibility is on the one who controls the memory not other way round.





good logic

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2020, 07:01:53 AM »
Is the parent controlling the child?
If the child chooses a  wrong path and takes the decision to go through it, the parent may not agree or like it, but they will not be accountable/responsible. How can the parent be blamed if they prepared the child and shown them clearly the best path?

The fact that the wrong path is clearly defined from the wrong path gives each individual the responsibility.
Of course the parent will prefer the child to make the right decisions  and choose the right path. The parent will also know that the two paths lead to two different experiences and know  that nothing can be done to change the outcome.

Just like we cannot change the laws GOD made in our universe, we cannot change any future experience we are put through in the future . Our  present experience determines our future one elsewhere.
GOD knows why He creates, Why He repeats the creation cycles and who deserves what experiences He chooses for them.

The created are given clear guidelines and prepared well to go through their experience. .Where will they put themselves next is up to them.

For example, we have chosen the "responsibility this time as humans. Why should the source-GOD- be responsible?
GOD bless.
Peace.
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imrankhawaja

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2020, 08:49:38 AM »
The only difference is parents are not aware what path kid will choose.
Source of creation knows it all.

Source of creation also created the direction in the mind to what path that kind/type of mind will follow.
Does it still feel like freewill?

Evil and good are a side of same coin. both are infact a same thing with different degrees,like light and dark. Creating characters with degrees is the act of source. Like in a movie characters are created by the writer who decide which character plays which role negative or positive. If character refuse to play a role of negative the whole script will not work he must need to b negative for the success of story. What choice do a character have in all of this?

good logic

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2020, 03:27:53 PM »
The relevant issue is whether the child is aware and is not forced into the path  they take by the parent. The parent knowing or not knowing which path the child takes is not an issue or relevant.
The creator as far as my experience as a human goes is not forcing me to  choose my path. I am fully aware of this.

To my knowledge  also , I have never heard or witnessed of any human being forced to choose a path by the creator.
 This makes the individual alone responsible for the choice of their path.
GOD bless.
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imrankhawaja

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2020, 04:58:18 PM »
What is it that choose the path?
Who designed the thing that choose the path?

Further more

The factors due to which one choose a path? All are coming through 5 senses by outside agencies what forced the ONEself to choose a specific path.

What is it?

MIND or Life force or the events happened to a human body what make a memory of the information recieved by senses?

And upon recieving that information body/mind/life force choose the path what is experienced by it.

All this is illusion what make people believe they are free willed, in reality they dnt know who are they and what is it that known as "I" and  what is it that choose?

Thats another matter if u submit what is chosen for you already either play negative or positive role of that play you will ending in rewards and money.

Even the paths are designed and set by path-maker or path-designer.

Example : mr X is aware everything about his created character and he set a path or options for him.

Thats how he will work it out first he want that character to eat something he have option either meat or vegetable...

Now foe this he desinged the stomach what only like to digest meat hence his choice is already in the knowledge of mr X.

Now mr X set a rule if my creation will kill someone for meat then i will punish him to fire.

And then he said i told you already its your choice of choosing the path hence punishment due  :bravo: thats called a perfect un-forceful choice.  :rotfl:

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2020, 04:33:32 AM »
Let us ask the following question:
Is there a better alternative ? i.e could the creator have chosen to create differently?
This is where we need to reflect on two things:
- Why did GOD not create "perfect" beings to start with?
-What is a "perfect" being?

The meaning of one GOD goes a long way to explain what is creation and why create this way.

Creating a "perfect" being by definition is contradictory to "there can only be one GOD". A perfect being means GOD Alone. Perfect in knowledge and everything else. So surely GOD knows how and why create.

Any creation of GOD then has to learn from GOD. That learning has to be done through experiences. 
Everything belongs to GOD. GOD s kingdom is perfect. The learning process of GOD s creation allows them a share in that kingdom.

All subjects of GOD kingdom  will have perfect happiness and live in a perfect system under GOD as the only king.
Those that do not reach this deep conviction and deep loyalty to want to be in GOD s kingdom will carry on through other experience/s as GOD wills.

All experiences require systems. Creations are simply choosing systems.
GOD seems to have a perfect plan for unity,happiness and a brilliant common goal for all His creation if they are  ready to learn and  accept the perfect system.
I wonder if we can come up with a better alternative of how to create?
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2020, 06:51:51 AM »

I wonder if we can come up with a better alternative of how to create?


WE cannot and we never will. Reason is the day we understand how to create, WE turned ourself in to a CREATOR.

And one more QUESTION you asked what is perfection or perfect being?

Logically perfect is the one who creates perfect beings.

Looking into ourself you will see how perfect we are?

Why we are so gullible? why we are so afraid? Why we are attentionseeker? Why we hate? Why we jealous? Why we are so self centered? Why we are so selfish? And lots of WHYs.


good logic

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Re: Hell forever? Hassan Redwan
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2020, 10:26:46 AM »
Peace Imran.
Of course we do not have the knowledge to create..
As  for this, quote:

"Looking into ourself you will see how perfect we are?

Why we are so gullible? why we are so afraid? Why we are attentionseeker? Why we hate? Why we jealous? Why we are so self centered? Why we are so selfish? And lots of WHYs."

That is why we need to learn all these things before we qualify for GOD s kingdom . The best learning is done through experiencing them in different lives. Learning the hard way is the best learning and the most effective.
So of course only GOD  knows how to create  and  will keep on initiating new creations according to His own knowledge of all the creation  to fulfil the plan and promises.
 
The creation will never be perfect. Only GOD is perfect. But the creation can be fully satisfied and happy only  in  GOD s system/kingdom . It is the best experience to work towards/seek and will free us from all other experiences/systems if we follow GOD s teachings.

Opening our heart to our creator is a start, then all we can do is try our best where we are finding ourselves now and hope for GOD s mercy: in the future:

 They are the ones whose hearts rejoice in remembering God. Absolutely, by remembering God, the hearts rejoice.
الَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَتَطمَئِنُّ قُلوبُهُم بِذِكرِ اللَّهِ أَلا بِذِكرِ اللَّهِ تَطمَئِنُّ القُلوبُ
Those who believe and lead a righteous life have deserved happiness and a joyous destiny.
الَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَعَمِلُوا الصّٰلِحٰتِ طوبىٰ لَهُم وَحُسنُ مَـٔابٍ

That is my overall view of how we ended up here and where we go after is and will never be up to us.
GOD always has  the final say, whether we like it or not.
The question is can we do something about it?
To some yes,to others no.
For me, GOD our creator knows  exactly what He does. If we do not understand or do not agree or will never agree ,we cannot/will not be able to say GOD was wrong or unjust for sure.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/