Author Topic: How would you answer this question  (Read 3002 times)

Bikrun

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2020, 04:57:08 AM »
Peace,

10.37
You should say more...
Maybe your understand arabic, but it isn't the case for all. And in some translations there is no mentions of the book (but :if we chek in arabic there is a mention 'lkitabi).
And in others, we find " the [former] scripture, the existing book ( the Bible) and we can also find the Book.

If you can explain what you understand. Sarah asked questions maybe she needs details.

Thanks.

Salam, sister

Well, there is a huge problem with translations and especially with the brackets which directly express one personal interpretation of one singular person, the translator. Sister Sara can go herself through this great journey and discover her own interpretation, may Allah guide her, with an open, pure, empty from a priori ideas and brackets mind and without no one. I just proposed to her my understanding which is that Kitab and Quran are not the same. It is not stated if Kitab was sent in "arabic" and it is not said that Kitab is a "book" as we understand a "book", thus ayat in the kitab is not necessary a verse. Ayat can mean other things (30:22).

If you take it like this and forget that Kitab is a "book" with pages and that verses are not necessarily a limited group of words, the understanding can be quite different. And if you take it like this there is absolutely no dilemma of clear / not clear verses, allegorical or whatever, and so on.

About the existing/former scriptures (if they are scriptures), it is never said they are the book, they just "confirm" / "affirm" what is "yadayhi" (between his hands)... In any case, each one makes his/her own interpretation and research, may Allah guide us all 
42:43    And for he who is patient and forgives, then that is an indication of strength

nimnimak_11

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2020, 04:09:12 AM »
Peace

I was reading this website and came across this:
'The Quran says that it is “clear”, but then says elsewhere (3:7) that only Allah understands the meaning of some verses (which begs the question of why they are there).  It says that it explains "all things" (16:89), but then tells Muslims to follow the example of Muhammad (33:21) - without saying what that is.'

How would you argue these points?

Peace Sarah

3:7 doesn't say that only God understands the verses:

He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.

33:21 just tells us that in the messenger of God there is a good example. This does not mean that it is the only good possible example. I don't see an issue with citing a good example.

Asifzaheer

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2020, 01:08:30 PM »
Read ur detailed analogy n analysis..brother its amazing..thanx for sharing

Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2020, 03:57:11 AM »
Salam, sister

Well, there is a huge problem with translations and especially with the brackets which directly express one personal interpretation of one singular person, the translator. Sister Sara can go herself through this great journey and discover her own interpretation, may Allah guide her, with an open, pure, empty from a priori ideas and brackets mind and without no one. I just proposed to her my understanding which is that Kitab and Quran are not the same. It is not stated if Kitab was sent in "arabic" and it is not said that Kitab is a "book" as we understand a "book", thus ayat in the kitab is not necessary a verse. Ayat can mean other things (30:22).

If you take it like this and forget that Kitab is a "book" with pages and that verses are not necessarily a limited group of words, the understanding can be quite different. And if you take it like this there is absolutely no dilemma of clear / not clear verses, allegorical or whatever, and so on.

About the existing/former scriptures (if they are scriptures), it is never said they are the book, they just "confirm" / "affirm" what is "yadayhi" (between his hands)... In any case, each one makes his/her own interpretation and research, may Allah guide us all

Salam sister

I agree with what is in bold; I think that a translator should not add words, giving his understanding because it can be wrong and misleading.
We can also note that it is sometimes chosen a word for translation instead of another (even if it can fit very well) and in other verses they chose this another word. I wonder why. I think that we can't rely on those translations, we have to check if we can.

For the rest, I can give a clear opinion because of my lack of knowledge about it.


Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2020, 04:10:11 AM »
Peace Sarah

3:7 doesn't say that only God understands the verses:

He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.


33:21 just tells us that in the messenger of God there is a good example. This does not mean that it is the only good possible example. I don't see an issue with citing a good example.

Salam,

The understanding can be different. Depends on where are the dots , commas and semicolons in translation. In arabic, we don't find any dots, commas or semicolons. So how can we decide where to put them in verses like this one ?

And an important question I asked before, how can we have all the verses translated if some are only Allah or only Allah and those who are well founded in knowledge ?

We have diiferent translations...

good logic

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2020, 11:02:41 AM »
Peace Fadiva.
You say ,quote:
"And an important question I asked before, how can we have all the verses translated if some are only Allah or only Allah and those who are well founded in knowledge ?

We have diiferent translations..."

What is your understanding?
How can verses have different meanings ?
In that case each to thier own translation ,hence to their own Qoran!
And that is what we have nowdays don t you think?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2020, 03:22:33 PM »
Peace Fadiva.
You say ,quote:
"And an important question I asked before, how can we have all the verses translated if some are only Allah or only Allah and those who are well founded in knowledge ?

We have diiferent translations..."

What is your understanding?
How can verses have different meanings ?
In that case each to thier own translation ,hence to their own Qoran!
And that is what we have nowdays don t you think?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salam good logic,

I think if only Allah knows the meaning of the verses mutashabih, we should not (mustn't would be correct) try to translate them, be humble and believe all is from Allah.
If only Allah + the founded in knowledge, how to recognize those people ? How can we be sure if oneself is among them ?

I think that maybe some translations are made according to some other sources, maybe some of them are not really sincere, maybe we can find explanation in their culture...I can't be sure.

But if only Allah knows the meanings of the mutashabih verses, we should only find the muhkham verses translated and a sincere believer should recognize them or remember that.
Not easy to answer. I think, as I said that we should not follow the translation blindly but we have to check if we can (al quran has a lot of verses). We can't follow our desires to translate the way we want. It demands patience. I think the most sensible behaviour is to ask Allah, be patient and not follow what we are not sure about, what we have no evidence.


jkhan

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2020, 11:08:21 PM »
Peace Sarah

3:7 doesn't say that only God understands the verses:

He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.

33:21 just tells us that in the messenger of God there is a good example. This does not mean that it is the only good possible example. I don't see an issue with citing a good example.

Peace everyone...

Read this article...  And give your thoughts if possible....

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/curse-those-who-believe-allahs-verses-ambiguous-true-meaning-khan

But only those who are well versed in Arabic grammar may be able to pick errors in this article... 
Hope someone  point out if there is a mistake..
Thank you and hope it benefits

Cerberus

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2020, 11:21:37 PM »
Salam good logic,

I think if only Allah knows the meaning of the verses mutashabih, we should not (mustn't would be correct) try to translate them, be humble and believe all is from Allah.
If only Allah + the founded in knowledge, how to recognize those people ? How can we be sure if oneself is among them ?

I think that maybe some translations are made according to some other sources, maybe some of them are not really sincere, maybe we can find explanation in their culture...I can't be sure.

But if only Allah knows the meanings of the mutashabih verses, we should only find the muhkham verses translated and a sincere believer should recognize them or remember that.
Not easy to answer. I think, as I said that we should not follow the translation blindly but we have to check if we can (al quran has a lot of verses). We can't follow our desires to translate the way we want. It demands patience. I think the most sensible behaviour is to ask Allah, be patient and not follow what we are not sure about, what we have no evidence.

If we can't follow our desires, and we don't know how to recognize the "founded in knowledge", and we can't tell the best of translations and interpretations, how do we do it ?

In general, how do you tell right from wrong ? Do we have the ability to tell right from wrong or do we just stick to belief and patience as you said ?

Layth

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2020, 12:33:23 AM »
Salam.

If I can add my 2 cents worth on this subject...

The Quran is both clear and unclear at the same time.

It is clear to those who want to learn (54:17)...God is its ultimate teacher (55:1-2)...And it is completely locked to those who have not surrendered - their hearts are blocked from it (6:25)

As for 3:7, that tells us that the Quran is split into 2 sections: 1. The basic Suras/Verses, 2. The Suras/Verses with deeper meanings that only those founded in knowledge would understand.

I would also add my opinion that the 29 initialed Suras are the "firm" suras/verses, while the rest of the Quran is what required deeper study/understanding.


`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)