Author Topic: How would you answer this question  (Read 3167 times)

Sarah

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How would you answer this question
« on: April 06, 2020, 03:23:27 PM »
Peace

I was reading this website and came across this:
'The Quran says that it is “clear”, but then says elsewhere (3:7) that only Allah understands the meaning of some verses (which begs the question of why they are there).  It says that it explains "all things" (16:89), but then tells Muslims to follow the example of Muhammad (33:21) - without saying what that is.'

How would you argue these points?

😃👀✋

Iyyaka

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2020, 09:01:25 PM »
Peace

I was reading this website and came across this:
'The Quran says that it is “clear”, but then says elsewhere (3:7) that only Allah understands the meaning of some verses (which begs the question of why they are there).  It says that it explains "all things" (16:89), but then tells Muslims to follow the example of Muhammad (33:21) - without saying what that is.'

How would you argue these points?
Peace Sarah,

"which begs the question of why they are there)" => Good questioning SO..
"says elsewhere (3:7) that only Allah understands the meaning of some verses" => ...that's INCORRECT. The text doesn't say that..The verse (3:7) is so bad understanding by not taking account the textual and historical context of it. But it requires time.

good logic

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2020, 04:21:12 AM »
Peace Sarah.
We need to ask this more important question:
If only Allah understand certain verses,why would Allah send them to us?
As some kind of a Joke?!!!
 Then we can study the context of the verses that people are claiming as contradictory, difficult, not clear...etc. Using all verses of Qoran.

The following will start to enmerge:
1- clear verses and detailed explanation will be obvious on things that we recognise, need and are familiar to us in our physical surroundings. like what we need to do, how to lead our lives, the good deeds and good morals,...all things that are necessary for our salvation in this life,.
2- Things about the unseen, other dimentions, other creatures like Malaika..etc ,. that we cannot grasp fully but Qoran gives us an outline of a world to come that we need to work for to be part of (or not). How can we possibly understand things fully in details like paradise or hell or how the future is going to look like...etc. Qoran has explained this case in details and calls it "Belief in the unseen through believing GOD"
 So in reality Qoran contains all the details that we need to know in this life to pass or fail our test. If it contained all the things that we are awaiting, it will be no use to us because GOD and the Angels and the hereafter may as well be presented to us in that case and the earning part for us will not take place.No need for a test!

So rGOD is saying none understands except Allah and those who study all the verses of Qoran (both on this world and the next) with sincerity to learn more while seek more knowledge and believe all GOD s words in Qoran. i.e And the.-Al Rasikhun Fi Al Ilm -They say we believe in all of it(All Qoran) .It is from our Lord. We belive in GOD and believe GOD.

Believers are in varying stages of knowledge according to the effort, sincerity and dedication to GOD s words one puts in to try to understand. And above all is GOD s knowledge
GOD bless you.
Peace .
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Iyyaka

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2020, 12:28:54 PM »
Qoran has explained this case in details and calls it "Belief in the unseen through believing GOD"
 So in reality Qoran contains all the details that we need to know in this life to pass or fail our test. If it contained all the things that we are awaiting, it will be no use to us because GOD and the Angels and the hereafter may as well be presented to us in that case and the earning part for us will not take place.No need for a test!
.
Peace good logic,

Some wise reasonings.
Yes we received a little divine knowledge from God but it is enough (for those who believe that Al-Quran is from God and nothing has been lost from the original revelation)
Just not forget that the FIRST receivers of the message was not us..and more than 1400 years separate us from them.(big GAP in all aspects)

But, i would like to ask you about the sentence I identified in bold above - from the verse 2:3?

good logic

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2020, 03:02:24 AM »
Peace : Iyyaka.

By believing in the unseen, we can only believe what GOD says about it in Qoran. We cannot make our own assumptions. Like for example the description of paradise, GOD gave us an allegorical description and comparisons we can apply to  our senses here in this life (the happy/good/calm... feeling)  to have a feel of what it could be like. But we cannot know its looks and wherabout.
We take GOD s  that it exist and is a wonderful abode.
It will be pointless and unnecessary to argue about the details of it, like we humans like to do in all sorts of other subjects we cannot possibly know or need to know now.
Thanks for your query.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Iyyaka

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2020, 03:57:21 AM »
Peace : Iyyaka.

By believing in the unseen, we can only believe what GOD says about it in Qoran. We cannot make our own assumptions. Like for example the description of paradise, GOD gave us an allegorical description and comparisons we can apply to  our senses here in this life (the happy/good/calm... feeling)  to have a feel of what it could be like. But we cannot know its looks and wherabout.
We take GOD s  that it exist and is a wonderful abode.
It will be pointless and unnecessary to argue about the details of it, like we humans like to do in all sorts of other subjects we cannot possibly know or need to know now.
Thanks for your query.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Peace and God bless u too.
Right. Thanks

Wakas

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2020, 04:50:31 AM »
tells Muslims to follow the example of Muhammad (33:21)

33:21 says "rasul/messenger" not Muhammad

Big difference. (click)
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2020, 05:31:01 AM »
3.7
Arberry: It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.

Shakir: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Pickthall: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

It seems that only Allah knows the meaning of the allegorical verses. Then there is a point or a comma. Those who are firmly in knowlege say they believe in it ( it isn't said that they know the meaning of them).

So I wonder why all the verses are translated (exept three letters but proposed ALM or Alif, Lam, Mim) if some are only known by Allah.  If I'm not wrong(I asked myself this question about some years ago).Is it not a risk to mislead/deceive people who are reading translations ?
I remember another translation into French with no point or comma and some people (like Nidal Guessoum if I remember well) assuming that only Allah and those who are firmly in knowledge know the meaning of them but there is another verb after, which is "say." Those who are firmly in knoledge say(they believe in them,its all from Allah).

I didn't read ( and I don't); "except Allah and those who are firmly in knowledge which say:...."

Edit: I get from an arabe to french dictionnary: مُّحْكَمَاتٌ translated as court, referee or arbitrator. When somebody say "hakam" I understand command ( or give order) ...
and for تَشَابَهَ I get :alike, similarity, something that looks like the same. In French translations( made by translators of al quran) we have " à equivoque" ( equivocal, ambiguous).
so differents meanings for those words... I wonder how they choose them.

Bikrun

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2020, 10:12:00 AM »
Peace

I was reading this website and came across this:
'The Quran says that it is “clear”, but then says elsewhere (3:7) that only Allah understands the meaning of some verses (which begs the question of why they are there).  '

How would you argue these points?

Salam,


3:7 is talking about the Kitab and not about the Quran. They are not the same (10:37)
42:43    And for he who is patient and forgives, then that is an indication of strength

Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2020, 03:38:43 AM »
Peace,

10.37
You should say more...
Maybe your understand arabic, but it isn't the case for all. And in some translations there is no mentions of the book (but :if we chek in arabic there is a mention 'lkitabi).
And in others, we find " the [former] scripture, the existing book ( the Bible) and we can also find the Book.

If you can explain what you understand. Sarah asked questions maybe she needs details.

Thanks.

Bikrun

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2020, 04:57:08 AM »
Peace,

10.37
You should say more...
Maybe your understand arabic, but it isn't the case for all. And in some translations there is no mentions of the book (but :if we chek in arabic there is a mention 'lkitabi).
And in others, we find " the [former] scripture, the existing book ( the Bible) and we can also find the Book.

If you can explain what you understand. Sarah asked questions maybe she needs details.

Thanks.

Salam, sister

Well, there is a huge problem with translations and especially with the brackets which directly express one personal interpretation of one singular person, the translator. Sister Sara can go herself through this great journey and discover her own interpretation, may Allah guide her, with an open, pure, empty from a priori ideas and brackets mind and without no one. I just proposed to her my understanding which is that Kitab and Quran are not the same. It is not stated if Kitab was sent in "arabic" and it is not said that Kitab is a "book" as we understand a "book", thus ayat in the kitab is not necessary a verse. Ayat can mean other things (30:22).

If you take it like this and forget that Kitab is a "book" with pages and that verses are not necessarily a limited group of words, the understanding can be quite different. And if you take it like this there is absolutely no dilemma of clear / not clear verses, allegorical or whatever, and so on.

About the existing/former scriptures (if they are scriptures), it is never said they are the book, they just "confirm" / "affirm" what is "yadayhi" (between his hands)... In any case, each one makes his/her own interpretation and research, may Allah guide us all 
42:43    And for he who is patient and forgives, then that is an indication of strength

nimnimak_11

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2020, 04:09:12 AM »
Peace

I was reading this website and came across this:
'The Quran says that it is “clear”, but then says elsewhere (3:7) that only Allah understands the meaning of some verses (which begs the question of why they are there).  It says that it explains "all things" (16:89), but then tells Muslims to follow the example of Muhammad (33:21) - without saying what that is.'

How would you argue these points?

Peace Sarah

3:7 doesn't say that only God understands the verses:

He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.

33:21 just tells us that in the messenger of God there is a good example. This does not mean that it is the only good possible example. I don't see an issue with citing a good example.

Asifzaheer

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2020, 01:08:30 PM »
Read ur detailed analogy n analysis..brother its amazing..thanx for sharing

Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2020, 03:57:11 AM »
Salam, sister

Well, there is a huge problem with translations and especially with the brackets which directly express one personal interpretation of one singular person, the translator. Sister Sara can go herself through this great journey and discover her own interpretation, may Allah guide her, with an open, pure, empty from a priori ideas and brackets mind and without no one. I just proposed to her my understanding which is that Kitab and Quran are not the same. It is not stated if Kitab was sent in "arabic" and it is not said that Kitab is a "book" as we understand a "book", thus ayat in the kitab is not necessary a verse. Ayat can mean other things (30:22).

If you take it like this and forget that Kitab is a "book" with pages and that verses are not necessarily a limited group of words, the understanding can be quite different. And if you take it like this there is absolutely no dilemma of clear / not clear verses, allegorical or whatever, and so on.

About the existing/former scriptures (if they are scriptures), it is never said they are the book, they just "confirm" / "affirm" what is "yadayhi" (between his hands)... In any case, each one makes his/her own interpretation and research, may Allah guide us all

Salam sister

I agree with what is in bold; I think that a translator should not add words, giving his understanding because it can be wrong and misleading.
We can also note that it is sometimes chosen a word for translation instead of another (even if it can fit very well) and in other verses they chose this another word. I wonder why. I think that we can't rely on those translations, we have to check if we can.

For the rest, I can give a clear opinion because of my lack of knowledge about it.


Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2020, 04:10:11 AM »
Peace Sarah

3:7 doesn't say that only God understands the verses:

He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.


33:21 just tells us that in the messenger of God there is a good example. This does not mean that it is the only good possible example. I don't see an issue with citing a good example.

Salam,

The understanding can be different. Depends on where are the dots , commas and semicolons in translation. In arabic, we don't find any dots, commas or semicolons. So how can we decide where to put them in verses like this one ?

And an important question I asked before, how can we have all the verses translated if some are only Allah or only Allah and those who are well founded in knowledge ?

We have diiferent translations...

good logic

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2020, 11:02:41 AM »
Peace Fadiva.
You say ,quote:
"And an important question I asked before, how can we have all the verses translated if some are only Allah or only Allah and those who are well founded in knowledge ?

We have diiferent translations..."

What is your understanding?
How can verses have different meanings ?
In that case each to thier own translation ,hence to their own Qoran!
And that is what we have nowdays don t you think?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

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Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2020, 03:22:33 PM »
Peace Fadiva.
You say ,quote:
"And an important question I asked before, how can we have all the verses translated if some are only Allah or only Allah and those who are well founded in knowledge ?

We have diiferent translations..."

What is your understanding?
How can verses have different meanings ?
In that case each to thier own translation ,hence to their own Qoran!
And that is what we have nowdays don t you think?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salam good logic,

I think if only Allah knows the meaning of the verses mutashabih, we should not (mustn't would be correct) try to translate them, be humble and believe all is from Allah.
If only Allah + the founded in knowledge, how to recognize those people ? How can we be sure if oneself is among them ?

I think that maybe some translations are made according to some other sources, maybe some of them are not really sincere, maybe we can find explanation in their culture...I can't be sure.

But if only Allah knows the meanings of the mutashabih verses, we should only find the muhkham verses translated and a sincere believer should recognize them or remember that.
Not easy to answer. I think, as I said that we should not follow the translation blindly but we have to check if we can (al quran has a lot of verses). We can't follow our desires to translate the way we want. It demands patience. I think the most sensible behaviour is to ask Allah, be patient and not follow what we are not sure about, what we have no evidence.


jkhan

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2020, 11:08:21 PM »
Peace Sarah

3:7 doesn't say that only God understands the verses:

He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.

33:21 just tells us that in the messenger of God there is a good example. This does not mean that it is the only good possible example. I don't see an issue with citing a good example.

Peace everyone...

Read this article...  And give your thoughts if possible....

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/curse-those-who-believe-allahs-verses-ambiguous-true-meaning-khan

But only those who are well versed in Arabic grammar may be able to pick errors in this article... 
Hope someone  point out if there is a mistake..
Thank you and hope it benefits

Cerberus

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2020, 11:21:37 PM »
Salam good logic,

I think if only Allah knows the meaning of the verses mutashabih, we should not (mustn't would be correct) try to translate them, be humble and believe all is from Allah.
If only Allah + the founded in knowledge, how to recognize those people ? How can we be sure if oneself is among them ?

I think that maybe some translations are made according to some other sources, maybe some of them are not really sincere, maybe we can find explanation in their culture...I can't be sure.

But if only Allah knows the meanings of the mutashabih verses, we should only find the muhkham verses translated and a sincere believer should recognize them or remember that.
Not easy to answer. I think, as I said that we should not follow the translation blindly but we have to check if we can (al quran has a lot of verses). We can't follow our desires to translate the way we want. It demands patience. I think the most sensible behaviour is to ask Allah, be patient and not follow what we are not sure about, what we have no evidence.

If we can't follow our desires, and we don't know how to recognize the "founded in knowledge", and we can't tell the best of translations and interpretations, how do we do it ?

In general, how do you tell right from wrong ? Do we have the ability to tell right from wrong or do we just stick to belief and patience as you said ?

Layth

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2020, 12:33:23 AM »
Salam.

If I can add my 2 cents worth on this subject...

The Quran is both clear and unclear at the same time.

It is clear to those who want to learn (54:17)...God is its ultimate teacher (55:1-2)...And it is completely locked to those who have not surrendered - their hearts are blocked from it (6:25)

As for 3:7, that tells us that the Quran is split into 2 sections: 1. The basic Suras/Verses, 2. The Suras/Verses with deeper meanings that only those founded in knowledge would understand.

I would also add my opinion that the 29 initialed Suras are the "firm" suras/verses, while the rest of the Quran is what required deeper study/understanding.


`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

amin

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2020, 12:36:31 AM »
My take,

Some of things are signs, examples, and they need not be followed exactly without knowing the inner meaning in those, its like  a moral story being told, but instead of following the moral, some only copying what the characters did without understanding or not worrying about the sign or moral, so Allah  only knows why those characters did that at those circumstances, and Men in understanding knows what the moral of the story is.

Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2020, 04:58:10 AM »
If we can't follow our desires, and we don't know how to recognize the "founded in knowledge", and we can't tell the best of translations and interpretations, how do we do it ?

In general, how do you tell right from wrong ? Do we have the ability to tell right from wrong or do we just stick to belief and patience as you said ?

Salam,

Note: I am talking according to what I know and feel now, maybe I will have more knowledge later. I have a lot to learn.

They are verses which are clear to everyone I think like the ones commanding to believe that their is just one God  and good deeds: example :feeding, giving clothes or money to the poor people.
We have to read with attention.
Being patient is not doing nothing : I meant here asking Allah 's help and reading Al quran and make the effort to understand what is possible to understand (they several words repetated several times in Al quran and there is a reason). It demands time. And there are other signs. Some people might be well guided even if they can't read but understand the good from the evil. Allah guides who he wants. He knows best.

We can't just say what are the best translations without checking (checking the arabic words and their meaning and compare to other verses).

Concerning the "alike" verses, I have to be careful, I will not  try to give a meaning if it's to ambiguous for me.

When I said " not to follow" our desires, it was about to chose to interprete a verse the way that suits us . Sincerity is very important.




Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2020, 05:06:48 AM »
Salam.

If I can add my 2 cents worth on this subject...

The Quran is both clear and unclear at the same time.

It is clear to those who want to learn (54:17)...God is its ultimate teacher (55:1-2)...And it is completely locked to those who have not surrendered - their hearts are blocked from it (6:25)

As for 3:7, that tells us that the Quran is split into 2 sections: 1. The basic Suras/Verses, 2. The Suras/Verses with deeper meanings that only those founded in knowledge would understand.

I would also add my opinion that the 29 initialed Suras are the "firm" suras/verses, while the rest of the Quran is what required deeper study/understanding.

Salam Layth,

How can you be sure that those founded in knowledge understand them ? In arabic, there are no dots, commas and semicolons. We can have two meanings depending if we add and where we place them.
Is there another verse (or several)that leads you to that understanding ?

Layth

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2020, 01:50:18 AM »
Salam Fadiva,

The Quran was delivered orally (recited) before it was recorded. It is therefore not difficult to see how this oral transmission would have retained the correct reading - even without the vowel marks - until the vowel marks were added.

What difference there was in the recitations, later spilled out into the text, giving us the "7 readings" or "10 readings" (depending on your reference). The differences are cataloged and are quite small (less than 1% of the text affected), with the biggest difference being the 'verse stops' that vary greatly between the Hafs and Warsh written versions.

https://www.free-minds.org/which-quran
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Fadiva

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Re: How would you answer this question
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2020, 04:51:24 AM »
Salam Layth,

Thank you for the link to the article. I have juste read it, and it is also said that there are differences in the meaning of some words. The way that some verses are read can be understood differently...
7 or more readings accepted because it is said that nabi Mohammed accepted them. But normaly just one reading is correct, isn't it ? That  s my understanding , al quran was revealed in pure arabic.
The author of this article seems to be right.

39.28

 قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا غَيْرَ ذِي عِوَجٍ لَّعَلَّهُمْ يَتَّقُونَ