Author Topic: New article: salat timings as per The Quran  (Read 10016 times)

seekingtruth1111

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2020, 01:24:20 AM »
You didn't get my point I presume ... We all know we can praise God other than Salat at any time or even the times which God specify....

But Salat time fixed and mandatory act and is not merely praising God...

My question was how to do Salat and irregular praising at the same time...

GID orders to praise His name before the rising of Sun... This is not Salat for sure..
Then how can we keep praying untill sunrise... We never be able to take before surmising as praising time of God.. But we do Salat that of course part of praising the Lord but not Salat...

Can we consider 20:130 to be salat then?  If no then be constant in logic

Can fasting of Ramadan  and fasting of haj or 60 days equal... Things are different


Yes salat is not merely for praising god. But praising is a part of it as you can see from  17:110-111

17:110 Say: "Call on God or call on the Almighty; by whichever you call on, to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in making your contact prayer, nor too quiet; but seek a path in between.
17:111 And say: "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And magnify Him greatly.

Similarly remembering God is a purpose of Salat

20:14 "I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and hold the contact prayer for My remembrance."

But that  does not mean we don't remember God other time.

4:103 So when you are done with the contact prayer, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. When you are relieved, you shall hold the contact prayer; the contact prayer for those who acknowledge is a scheduled event

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2020, 01:45:25 AM »
peace jkhan,.


Re: 2:187
It's simple. One begins abstinence at morning twilight, and then it's immediately time for salat al fajr (which lasts until the sun first appears above the horizon) so there is no time for sex in the scenario you mentioned.

You mean sex is allowed while fasting but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that...
That's super cool understanding .. Really amazed with your logic..

Okay.. During fasting  according to your understanding you have to break fast when the part of the sun dissapeared... Do you breakfast first or Salat when you see Sun set...
Or just drink water at the sight of sunset and continue to pray until all twilights are over that's almost 90 mints... So stay more 90 mints in hunger...  Then eat and drink as usual... That's too much of asking...
Or like  conventional people delay Salat by 20 mints during fasting.. That won't work according to what you claim of timing...

How would one come to know that sun is risen while praying Fajr to stop or complete Salat...
So his or her concentration will be sunrising... It's hard to know minimum half an hour to know exactly whether sun is risen or not even on a clear day if you are inside..  Or else you should repeat daily same thing to guess we have spent this much time..
How one would know exactly the sun is set of portion is hidden before he or she start pray isha ...

Aren't these too much of stress on believers?  While God says He wants make things easy for us...

Lol.. Just with curiosity.. Do you really practice in this manner it you just found out it is the way...


@ s1111...
I am sorry.. You are not getting me...  Salat has fixed time and waqas claim it is continuing from one point to another.. That's why I brought it...

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2020, 03:37:10 AM »
You mean sex is allowed while fasting but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that...
That's super cool understanding .. Really amazed with your logic..

Okay.. During fasting  according to your understanding you have to break fast when the part of the sun dissapeared... Do you breakfast first or Salat when you see Sun set...
Or just drink water at the sight of sunset and continue to pray until all twilights are over that's almost 90 mints... So stay more 90 mints in hunger...  Then eat and drink as usual... That's too much of asking...
Or like  conventional people delay Salat by 20 mints during fasting.. That won't work according to what you claim of timing...

How would one come to know that sun is risen while praying Fajr to stop or complete Salat...
So his or her concentration will be sunrising... It's hard to know minimum half an hour to know exactly whether sun is risen or not even on a clear day if you are inside..  Or else you should repeat daily same thing to guess we have spent this much time..
How one would know exactly the sun is set of portion is hidden before he or she start pray isha ...

Aren't these too much of stress on believers?  While God says He wants make things easy for us...

Lol.. Just with curiosity.. Do you really practice in this manner it you just found out it is the way...


@ s1111...
I am sorry.. You are not getting me...  Salat has fixed time and waqas claim it is continuing from one point to another.. That's why I brought it...

Peace..

Salat is never equal to anytime remembering and praising God.. otherwise God doesn't need to say leave business and Hasten for salat...we can do business and remember God and praise God... Can't we?
Why God call Salat is time fixed and giving it's timing in verse 11:114 and 17:78...

After all by salat and normal remembering all Zikr of Allah...
Doing something at the time what God ordered has a huge difference rather than doing at our convenience.... It's commitment and shear obedience..

Salat,  saabih,  and mere zikr all different... For Salat God says to be clean and not for Saabih and mere zikr... Never told not to near but for Salat...

** For Salat God has given Timing only three as per my thorough understanding...

** For saabih God has given certain timing.. Many a specified time... Example 20:130, 50:39-40, 52:48-49 etc..but not kithab mawkuth...

** For mere Zikr of Allah no timing, any time of our choice....

God says those are the believers who establish Salat and end up as successful and in Janna. 23:1-10.. One example..

So given timing shouldn't collide with Salat and saabih since both Salat and saabih not same... . But it really collides according what waqas explained.

If one says above ** points are same... I doubt he or she understood Quran ...
Even malaika do saabih and not Salat... No evidence....

Ponder if 17:78 is Isha salat...  God could have explained in 17:78 the timing of Fajr as well in the following manner... Establish Salat Duluki shams (sun set) to Ghashak Lail (darkness of night)  and from white thread of Fajr to sunrise... But God was not interested in any such explanation.. But only explained One salat... For waqas that is Isha of his choice but for me it is middle salat...  But remember God didn't skip Fajr Salat in 11:114 ...explained both Salat in one verse.. But strangely again explained in 17:78... That's far-fetching... Beyond reality... Ask everyone to Self why God explained additionally isha Salat if 17:78 is isha while we can clearly Know Salat isha time by verse 11:114..

God says when you rise up, sabih the name of your Lord.. Is it salah though it has a time. .No ...

With all above I deduce salat has three fixed timing... Hope anyone would ponder on my understanding and compare with Quran

Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2020, 04:00:24 AM »
You mean sex is allowed while fasting but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that...

Rephrasing what you said to show how illogical and self-contradictory your statement is:

Quote
You mean sex is allowed while abstaining but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that


Quote
That's super cool understanding .. Really amazed with your logic..

Thanks but we don't even need salat-timing to know this as Quran says abstinence begins from the white thread of dawn/fajr. It just so happens the way I interpret it perfectly coincides with this practice anyway.



Quote
Okay.. During fasting  according to your understanding you have to break fast when the part of the sun dissapeared

Rather than making a baseless claim about what my understanding is please quote what I have actually said.

It's simple. Abstinence is till the night (which begins when the sun is below the horizon). One would likely be doing ablution about this time anyway thus having a drink of water is rather simple, thus if one wishes to end their abstinence then observe salat al isha that is fine in my opinion. If one wishes to end their abstinence after salat al isha that is also fine in my opinion. There is no right or wrong for this issue as per Quran. Rather than making baseless/subjective objections please present some actual Quranic evidence to the contrary.

What is rather amusing is that you seem to be making out these are problematic issues when these alleged issues would be present in every understanding.
But perhaps I'm wrong and maybe your "thorough understanding" has no issues whatsoever. If so please create your own thread with your own alleged "thorough understanding" for all to see.


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2020, 11:06:23 PM »
Peace  all

Below is a small excerpts of waqas's article...

Why The Quran has redundant and potentially misleading repitition is not discussed by the author, e.g. why mention Fajr twice. From my experience, 20:130 is a frequent cause of issues for those advocating 5 salat daily from Quran

Why you ask others why Fajr is repeated twice while you failed to answer still why salat Isha is repeated twice while Fajr once ?

To be clear if in fact the starting point of salat Isha is at the Setting point of Sun and Fajr finishes at the sunrise..

Then... God would have stated without any ambiguity simply in 11:114 Establish Salat At the TWO Ends of Night... What is two ends of night just before sunrise... And just after sunset.. But wa zulafan minal lail....  (but nearness portions of Night)... No need to bring Day into picture while Salat is during night...

If sunrise and sunset can be two ends of Day why can't it be two ends of Night?

Coz the main issue is sunrise and sunset is neither two ends of Day nor Two ends of Night... Two ends are two twilights periods... But you must be wondering But why God called the Two Ends of Day (Nahar) while the period of Salat is within night... Coz two ends only belong to Nahar (Day)  and not for Night.. Twilights are part of Day and not night.. ...
Even one can claim..
*Sunrise is One End of Night
*Sunset is One End of Day..

Both sunrise and sunset cannot be Ends of Day only OR Night only...
Coz untill the Sun  rise it was night.. And coz until the sunset it was Day...
So logically they should belong to both Day and night and not solely to Day...
If in fact the salat Isha and Fajr are as per waqas after sunset and before sunrise respectively then God would have explained with best of explanations... How?...

Establish salat in two ends of ENTIRE TWILIGHTS ...
Instead no need 17:78 and 11:114 and complicate people.... 

But God's instructions is different... And much clear... ...

Three Salat is manifest.... You Can't GUARD Salat by OMITING one salat Daily (if two) .. You Can't perform Salat EXTRA (if five) while Salat is intentionally TIME FIXED by God...how you change time fixed to our convenience.. Nothing works but only instructions of God..

Choose the right option my fellow brothers and sisters... Explore and verify and follow yourself what you feel guided to you... Coz it's a daily act ...not just informative topic of Quran .
 

ths

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2020, 03:58:42 AM »
Salaam Wakas

Can you explain how you interpret multiple zulaf in this passage:

Quote
To clarify: this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight).
This satisfies the Arabic plural "zulafan" in 11:114 as these two salat time-ranges include morning twilight, evening twilight and a small part of dark night, i.e. 3 proximal parts of the night.

If I start to pray salat al-fajr when it's still dark until light appears, and I pray Isha from the rubbing of the sun till it's dark, then these are only 2 'nearnesses' of the night as far as I can see

فَاسْتَبِقُوا الْخَيْرَاتِ ۚ
So strive as in a race in all virtues!
5:48

Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2020, 07:38:12 AM »
peace ths,

Highlights in red:

Quote from: Wakas
This satisfies the Arabic plural "zulafan" in 11:114 as these two salat time-ranges include morning twilight, evening twilight and a small part of dark night, i.e. 3 proximal parts of the night.

Quote from: ths
If I start to pray salat al-fajr when it's still dark until light appears, and I pray Isha from the rubbing of the sun till it's dark, then these are only 2 'nearnesses' of the night as far as I can see

From the above I'm not sure if you consider twilights to be part of the night, hence the confusion. I do based on the evidence in Quran, thus I am referring to parts of the night that are somewhat distinguishable from each other, e.g.
1) morning twilight
2) evening twilight
3) dark night (i.e. minimal/no twilight).


Background:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html (which links to this explanation)
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

ths

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2020, 08:19:07 AM »
Ok so the difference is that you consider the darkness of the night to be the third zulfah. My issue with that is that zulf mainly refers to closeness, proximity. So I'd translate 11.114 as "the two edges of the day and the close points of the night". Why add that here if the sunrise and sunset are already close to the night?
The night is close just before dawn and just after the sun rises above the horizon. It's also close at the 'rubbing' of the sun at sunset and just after the sun has dipped below the horizon. But these are the two edges of the day. Why add a note about closeness of night? It seems redundant to me, and I don't see more than 2 edges to the day in this scenario.

And I have the same problem with the plural of tarf. The commandment in 11.114 to pray at the two sides/edges of the day makes sense. But the commandment to Muhammad to glorify at the a6raf al-nahar in 20:130 makes no sense to me.

The only explanation I can give for zulafan including the darkness of the night is that it doesn't mean closeness, but advancement forward. This is another definition offered in the dictionaries. So zulafan would be rendered 'the advancements/progressions of the night'. This is supported by the use of ZLF in several verses where the word qareeb is already there.
34.37: وَمَا أَمْوَالُكُمْ وَلَا أَوْلَادُكُم بِالَّتِي تُقَرِّبُكُمْ عِندَنَا زُلْفَى
39.3: إِلَّا لِيُقَرِّبُونَا إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفَى

It's possible that these verses mean 'brought close to God to a near position'. But QRB already means to bring close. So these could be rendered 'brought close to God in an advanced position'.

I'm still chewing on this, not fully satisifed with any of these theories
فَاسْتَبِقُوا الْخَيْرَاتِ ۚ
So strive as in a race in all virtues!
5:48

Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2020, 08:55:28 AM »
The issue you raise is answered in the linked to explanation below.

Quote
Background:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html (which links to this explanation)
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Quote
As far as I know, taraf = extremity, edge, lateral/adjacent/outward part, side, border ,end, newly acquired. Used in verse 11:114, it does not specifically mean sunrise and sunset. It just means the edges (two) of daytime/daylight. The 'edges' need clarified, hence 17:78.

So, as you can see, 17:78 AND 11:114 are needed together for clarification and to confirm a time-range.

That's why I linked to it.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

ths

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2020, 03:23:32 AM »
Ok but it doesn't actually provide an explanation of what the edges are. You are simply stating that there are many edges to the day since the word is plural, and 17:78 defines those edges as sunrise and sunset.

Quote
As far as I know, taraf = extremity, edge, lateral/adjacent/outward part, side, border ,end, newly acquired. Used in verse 11:114, it does not specifically mean sunrise and sunset. It just means the edges (two) of daytime/daylight. The 'edges' need clarified, hence 17:78.


My question is: what are the other edges then? Because I can only think of sunrise and sunset.

And the same with zulaf. You state:

Quote
In 11:114, 'zulafun' is plural (i.e. three or more near/close/adjacent parts of the night). Now, lets use the minimum criteria for plural usage (i.e. 3), this 3 adjacent parts are to be used for the 2 salat (i.e. fajr & isha).

One example...

The time-range of fajr-salat = one adjacent part of night (twilight) until full sunrise (i.e. sun is fully above horizon)

The number of near/close/adjacent parts of the night used for fajr-salat = one.

The time-range of isha-salat = from rubbing of the sun (i.e. part going below the horizon), including twilight (one adjacent part) AND early night (another adjacent part).

You see, whatever salat is, one may be so focused that one doesn't realise the time and you enter the early part of the night (this is after twilight) THUS the plural criteria (i.e. 3 near/close/adjacent parts have been used altogether for the 2 salat). One adjacent part for fajr and two for isha, giving three.

To my understanding, you have one adjacent part of the night at fajr before the sun is fully up. And you have another at sunset. Once it is dark outside then this is night, not 'a close part of the night.'


Also sidenote, you state here that fajr salah begins at twilight. Can you remind me where this stems from? Why does it not start from full darkness prior to twilight?

And lastly, I've updated that image to reflect my understanding of salat timings. Do you agree with this? It corresponds very nicely with the reference to birds knowing their salat, as the two significant timings of bird song are called dawn chorus and evening, or dusk chorus
فَاسْتَبِقُوا الْخَيْرَاتِ ۚ
So strive as in a race in all virtues!
5:48