Author Topic: New article: salat timings as per The Quran  (Read 10013 times)

Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2020, 11:43:38 PM »
Please refrain from discussing what salat is.

The article is specifically for the timings.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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good logic

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2020, 05:11:20 AM »
Peace All.
This subject has been running on this forum and on multiple other forums for years.
I have read thousands of views ,most claiming they have an answer to:
1- Salat according to Qoran, its timing, contents and objective.

First let me make a clear statement to do with minimum salvation,as this is important for our priority:

I see the deen as a state of mind. A mind that is in tune / in a relation with GOD the creator and respects all the creation. A mind that follows the Sirat Al Mustaqueen as defined in 6{151-153.}

"Inna Deen Inda Allah Al Islam" and "Ihdina Tariq Al Mustaqueem"

It is also a choice. "La Ikraha Fi Deen" .GOD does not force this deen on anyone.
Fa Man Chaa Fal Umin Wa Man Chaa Falyakfur?"Whoever want to believe...and whoever want to disbelieve."

If one wants to become a Muslim ,then they should have no objection to following the best path instructed by GOD in Qoran, if they claim to follow Qoran/believe in it.

GOD does not expect people to pretend or to force themselves to do things they do not like or agree with. It is better if they were honest with themselves and only did things that make sense to them or things that they agree with.
That is better in the sight of GOD.
There is nothing wrong with having a private debate with GOD about all your doubts. GOD is listening.
If you want to take a journey with GOD .it is private and very personal between you and your creator.

If you want to go it alone or rely on others that is also your freedom of choice.. But you are accountable for having the faculties(eyes ears and brain) GOD gave you to use. If one misuses them they have only themselves to blame.

For me it is a no brainer. I do not see a way out except back to GOD at the end.
 So by choice and I am glad I realised this. I willingly decline my "Amana" other choice. I submit to the Lord of the universe and seek his friendship, light and guidance direct .
I do not see any problems with following the best path from Qoran s instruction. GOD has made his deen easy once the trial period of "making the decision" to enter into an agreement with the creator is over After all ,GOD will want to "try you" if you mean it or not!!!.
Of course my human instinct is fighting this surrender daily but I cannot go back on my covenant/agreement .

In short we are free but people make a problem for themselves by conforming to things they doubt or do not make sense to them.
Your decision alone is required ,nobody else will bare your burden whether you rely on them or not.
GOD guides and teaches all the true believers.

Coming back to "The Salat" , I have spent years investigating many views, especially those views from the specific "Qoran alone"  brothers and sistyers. All asking " where can I find how  and when to do "The Salat" from Qoran?. Yet after giving their views most fail to find the meaning and details of their claims using Qoran, which  they were asking the exact thing  in the first place.
The only exception that had a solid argument that was coherent and used all Qoran in context about "the salat" was this-according to my research- :
https://submission.org/Where_can_we_find_Salah.html

 The questions from everyone will keep coming about "The salat like:

I wonder if someone has no limbs ,how they going to do it?.
I wonder if someone has an emergency to attend or forgets... , how are they going to do it?.
I wonder if someone is on the moon, how are they going to do it.?
I wonder if someone is at the north pole, how are they going to do it?
...etc.
All these have been taken care of in Qoran, if one is not capable or enable to be on earth or...Then they are excused. They do it in their head if they can or not at all. GOD is forgiver most merciful.

The deen is not about rules and regulations ,it is about intentions , good morals and good work first and foremost.
The other helping items are there for the ones that can.. Each needs to follow GOD s instructions to the best of their abilities.
We cannot fool GOD or look for excuses. GOD is aware of each one of us . whether we are capable, where we are and whether we hear and obey him .
Or do you think we are left without GOD distinguishing our honesty and true intentions? Therefore you do what you can to the best of your knowledge!

"The Salat" , sawm, Zakat, ...etc are a helping hand from GOD to grow our souls more for thiose who wish to come even closer to GOD.

Our views, can only look "without errors" to us, Each thinking  that their " cleverness and logic of their Qoran study" has worked.
GOD  s logic is not our logic, that is why GOD keeps sending messengers.
Is there more to come from Qoran?
I will say yes ,until GOD decides the end for all of us
If you want to do "the salat" search for your own version or carry on with what you have. You have the means to decide for yourself..
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

seekingtruth1111

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2020, 03:42:25 PM »

Ok, now I understand what you are saying about time frame. Here is a little tip, why not clarify and say something like this:
Do you take "time frame" to mean:
1) one continuous length of time, i.e. that whole period is the length of the timed-salat
or
2) a time period in which one can do the timed-salat, i.e. it does not have to be for the whole length of the time period.

See how easy that was?

I take it as (1) but as I said before, in my view, the Quran is giving an exemplar/model to follow.

In any case, my point regarding evidence still stands, if you take 17:78 as do salat at A (i.e. noon in your view) then it would be nice to have some examples from Quran. The best examples would be other verses with a command X li A ila B, but there may be no other examples, I haven't researched it as it's a difficult thing to research.

Peace

I agree that the duration of one Salat is given in 17:78 (From A to B(darkness of night))in addition to ratifying 11:114 where the point of time when Salat is due (At A which  is close to night) is given.

If we don't have a standard duration or time length of a Salat then how do we shorten it ?

4:101 If you are mobilized in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten the contact prayer, if you fear that the ingrates will try you. The ingrates are to you a clear enemy.













seekingtruth1111

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2020, 04:45:35 PM »
peace GL,


The reason I wrote "setting of the sun / sunset" in the article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
Is because I take "setting of the sun" to mean when the sun disc touches down on the horizon (i.e. rubs/press it, i.e. duluk) and "sunset" as when the sun is below the horizon. It just so happens "duluk al shams" could mean both. Unlike you (and some others) I'm not going to make a baseless claim it can only mean one thing. Such a claim is utter nonsense and damages the credibility of anyone who claims such a thing.



Peace Wakas

So do you mean the starting point of Salat is as soon as Sun touches the horizon if you mean "duluk al shams" as rubbing of sun?


jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2020, 08:21:49 PM »
1) Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran. To clarify: this timed-salat begins at morning twilight and ends when any part of the sun first appears above the horizon

2) To clarify: this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night

Above 1 & 2 are your research for Salat Fajr and Isha respectively...

Subsequently First flaw is you have mentioned Sun in  no. 1 and not at all mentioned sun in no 2 ... Twilights are three types of three periods depend on the visibility... .. So better include "any part of Sun disappears" identical to no.1 rather than state merely twilight... if one tenth of the sun disappeared  no one can say that is Night or Day.. Can we?

.........

Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.

Above is your claim that QURAN say so....
If that is right then it should befit for every circumstance when we consider timing related activities... For example Fasting...

When God ordered us to fast?
2:187 explains it with one of the crystal clear manifest verses..
According to it..  When the white thread from/of Fajr appears stop eating and drinking (and all what is not allowed while fasting).. Note here the verse 2:187 doesn't say when some part of physical sun appears then stop.. Clearly not the case.. And to end the fasting Ila Lail (not relevant for this topic, so I discard)...

So according to Quran it only allows as I have many times stated in this forum having sex is only an act in the night of fasting and not during day... .thats indisputable.. 2:187 ..
But unfortunately for waqas.. Night is untill any part of Sun apears.. That is to say Sunrise...
So my long felt question is does Allah allow having sex untill any part of Sun appears while fasting? while clearly saying sex is at night of fasting?  So what is night? If we take until sun rise then prove me that I can't have sex until sunrise while fasting...

Don't say this is not relevant to your topic salat timing... Of course relevant coz your claim of twilight as part of night as well twilight ends sunrise ...

Is Quran contradicts or your understanding or mine for that matter?

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2020, 08:42:03 PM »
1) one continuous length of time, i.e. that whole period is the length of the timed-salat
or
2) a time period in which one can do the timed-salat, i.e. it does not have to be for the whole length of the time period.

See how easy that was?

I take it as (1) but as I said before, in my view, the Quran is giving an exemplar/model to follow

---------------

Above is your claim.. Salat is a constant time period.. For example from sunset to darkness of night... Or darkness to sunrise...

That's impossible..
For example if you do Salat darkness untill sunrise and complete Salat daily,  then how would you praise the Lord before sunrise as it is ordered to praise Lord 20:130 etc... If you are busy with Salat until sunrise how would you praise Lord other than Salat?
Also if you are busy from darkness to to sunrise in Salat constantly, then how would you recite quran at dawn...?
Coz that period is completely utilized for Salat

seekingtruth1111

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2020, 11:13:57 PM »
1) one continuous length of time, i.e. that whole period is the length of the timed-salat
or
2) a time period in which one can do the timed-salat, i.e. it does not have to be for the whole length of the time period.

See how easy that was?

I take it as (1) but as I said before, in my view, the Quran is giving an exemplar/model to follow

---------------

Above is your claim.. Salat is a constant time period.. For example from sunset to darkness of night... Or darkness to sunrise...

That's impossible..
For example if you do Salat darkness untill sunrise and complete Salat daily,  then how would you praise the Lord before sunrise as it is ordered to praise Lord 20:130 etc... If you are busy with Salat until sunrise how would you praise Lord other than Salat?
Also if you are busy from darkness to to sunrise in Salat constantly, then how would you recite quran at dawn...?
Coz that period is completely utilized for Salat

Peace Jkhan

I think we can praise and magnify God with or without salat. If you recite Quran in Salah there are many verses to praise,glorify,magnify God. For example chapter 1 which is usually recited starts with God's praise.

17:110 Say, "Call on God or call on the Gracious. Whichever it is you call on, to Him are the best names." Do not be loud/public in your contact prayer, nor quiet/private; but seek a path in between.

17:111 And say: "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And magnify Him greatly.

And we can praise god any time of the day even if we are not performing Salah.

21:19 To Him is whoever is in the heavens and in the earth. Those who are near Him are not too proud to serve Him, nor do they complain.
21:20 They glorify in the night and the day, they do not cease.

50:39 So be patient to what they are saying, and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.
50:40 From the night glorify Him, and after prostrating.

52:48 You shall be patient for the judgment of your Lord, for you are in Our sights, and glorify the praise of your Lord when you get up.
52:49 Also during the night glorify Him, and at the setting of the stars.

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2020, 12:19:54 AM »
Peace Jkhan

I think we can praise and magnify God with or without salat. If you recite Quran in Salah there are many verses to praise,glorify,magnify God. For example chapter 1 which is usually recited starts with God's praise.

17:110 Say, "Call on God or call on the Gracious. Whichever it is you call on, to Him are the best names." Do not be loud/public in your contact prayer, nor quiet/private; but seek a path in between.

17:111 And say: "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And magnify Him greatly.

And we can praise god any time of the day even if we are not performing Salah.

21:19 To Him is whoever is in the heavens and in the earth. Those who are near Him are not too proud to serve Him, nor do they complain.
21:20 They glorify in the night and the day, they do not cease.

50:39 So be patient to what they are saying, and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.
50:40 From the night glorify Him, and after prostrating.

52:48 You shall be patient for the judgment of your Lord, for you are in Our sights, and glorify the praise of your Lord when you get up.
52:49 Also during the night glorify Him, and at the setting of the stars.

You didn't get my point I presume ... We all know we can praise God other than Salat at any time or even the times which God specify....

But Salat time fixed and mandatory act and is not merely praising God...

My question was how to do Salat and irregular praising at the same time...

GID orders to praise His name before the rising of Sun... This is not Salat for sure..
Then how can we keep praying untill sunrise... We never be able to take before surmising as praising time of God.. But we do Salat that of course part of praising the Lord but not Salat...

Can we consider 20:130 to be salat then?  If no then be constant in logic

Can fasting of Ramadan  and fasting of haj or 60 days equal... Things are different

Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2020, 12:24:13 AM »
peace s1111,

If we don't have a standard duration or time length of a Salat then how do we shorten it ?

I agree there is an expectation from the model/exemplar we have in The Quran but in my personal opinion we should bear in mind it may vary from individual to individual. For example, one could observe a very short salat in comparison to their usual duration (whatever that may be).

Practical example:
usual salat 25-35mins
shortened salat 1-24mins

In other words, in my opinion, it depends on what the person/group usually does.

Quote
So do you mean the starting point of Salat is as soon as Sun touches the horizon if you mean "duluk al shams" as rubbing of sun?

(salat al isha)
Theoretically yes it could mean either, i.e. sun first touches the horizon or sunset (sun below horizon). So one could apply whichever as I find either understanding perfectly acceptable. As I have mentioned in my articles this understanding can compliment "salat al fajr", quote:

"If we consider one undertaking 'salat al-fajr' (the salat of/at dawn) then it is easy to realise one may crossover timewise into some point after sunrise, due to concentration/focus and/or finishing recitation/reading etc. In other words, going from "before the rising of the sun" (i.e. dawn) to after the sun's rising, i.e. "edges of the daytime" in this instance.
Thus, the "edges of the daytime" could be incorporated under the 'salat al-fajr' and 'salat al-3sha' periods, especially so if one wished to extend these periods in length."

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2020, 12:57:17 AM »
peace jkhan,

Firstly it is clear you have not read the article carefully as you seemed to have missed this point:

Quote
Please note "quran al fajr (reading/recitation (of) the dawn)" occurs at the same time as "salat al fajr" and are taken as equivalent in my understanding, proving a simple explanation as to what timed-salat of the mumineen involves [see article for more detail and other verses which back this up].

Further, it seems you have not read the following articles which are linked to from this salat timings article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

In brief, "SaBiH" is a very wide concept and can encompass many things. Same goes for "THiKR".

As I have mentioned before my preference is not to answer questions that are already in the articles. In case you or anyone wonders why I didn't reply to them. If people don't wish to read them that's up to them.


Re: 2:187
It's simple. One begins abstinence at morning twilight, and then it's immediately time for salat al fajr (which lasts until the sun first appears above the horizon) so there is no time for sex in the scenario you mentioned.




All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org