Author Topic: New article: salat timings as per The Quran  (Read 5308 times)

ade_cool

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2020, 09:46:33 PM »
Anyhow.. I don't know whether you believe in Quran order of revelation... If you don't believe in, then bring a single error according to Quran order of revelation and how the verses revealed.. I assure you, you will never be able to indicate a single.. For example fasting... If God said fast in Quran that verse cannot be before the verse when to fast..(verse may be before if in same chapter but not in another chapter)  coz all chapter has order of revelation...

Salam jkhan,

Can you elaborate further regarding "Quran order of revelation" that you mentioned here? Perhaps in separate thread in order not to mix with the topic in this thread.


Wassalam,
Ade

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2020, 10:51:01 PM »
Peace.. Everyone...

How can Duluki shams  be called as time of Isha.. Even if you insist that Duluki shams = sunset... Is SUNSET equal to ISHA....  Boy.. That's a big lie against Arabs and pure Arabic language.... Do you belie language of Arabic? That's far worse than conventional people who took Isha at its proper time...

Pay attention  to 11:114 carefully...
According to waqas...  Two ends are point of Sunrise and Sunset...  So Isha Salat timing is sorted out as the moment sunset UNTILL whatever of their choice of darkness.. So moment of sunset is = Isha literally ... That's a blasphemy to quran.. Has it ever recorded in any Arabic dictionary OR even in Quran that moment of sunset is = Isha... Bring evidence...

According to waqas the very starting point of Isha Salat (based on his research of both 17:78 and11:114) is Sunset,
Then logically the moment of salat Fajr undeniably Sunrise... thats incontrovertible... That's how TWO ENDs work out for waqas ... But unfortunately that's not the instructions of God...  (That's why I always reiterate that TWO ENDs are TWO  TWILIGHTS  period... And From there, inwards to night period(Zulafan minal  Lail) .. That's why while fasting, no sex after white thread at Fajr no food no drinks and not UNTILL sunrise... Huge difference is there with definition of Fajr and sunrise...

Is Sunrise equal to FAJR...  Is minute/s before sunrise called Fajr in Arabic... We got to go in line with Arabic and the nature where quran was revealed when it comes timing reference and not the north pole climate.. Will extreme north pole climate ever suite for fasting or Salat instructions throughout the year?

If one take the meaning TWO ends as point of SUNRISE and SUNSET then I am afraid they will be in great dilemma to figure out the time of Fajr.....

Question arise in this way...
** Do they have to wait till sunrise as indication for beginning or ending .. That's far from possibility...
** So in that case why they wait till sunset and immediately pray at the other End.. Isha...

See how simple and how perfect if you take two ends are Two Twilights periods..

So instructions are very clear and undoubtedly befit to wording of Isha and Fajr in Arabic...

Two ends prayers are not in two twilights..... Both in the near parts (zulafan) of night... That's perfect period of Isha and Fajr in definition of Arabic ...

Your claim of Isha and Fajr never befits with wording of God and not the given time frame... And not even Arabic language... If one asked you to come at Isha,  will you go and knock the door while sun setting?  Lol..  You have to be none Arab to do that..

Use common sense in 24:58 ... Instead of mentioning BEFORE FAJR salat permission, it is more befits before SUNRISE.. Coz last point of Fajr Salat according to you is sunrise... So kids needs to take permission before sunrise... Coz kids should know till sunrise parents are permitted to pray Fajr... So it is far better indication than before Fajr coz it's so manifest for kids coz no salat after sunrise .. So easy to confusion.. .
Meanwhile if one prayed Isha at the setting of sun then still full of light in the sky that is privacy period.. That's super bizzare... Nonsensical... reason of privacy is completely complicated by your timing brother waqas.. That doesn't befit according to the nature of where the quran was revealed.. At least there it takes 45-60 Minutes in summer...
Mid day privacy is basically coz of tiredness and heat ...but privacy of after isha and before Fajr may not be the same.. So kids worth asking permission... 

Note... "put aside your clothes" ... This is but SUMMER and not WINTER ...
So this verse will never befit for winter season... Coz it is very unlikely that people would REMOVE Clothes midday during Winter and rest. .  That's very inhuman... Why I say so is... clothes removing is not at all mentioned for before Fajr and after Isha.. Not at all required to state..... Isn't it? ..
But specifically why mentioned removing clothes removal at midday as if they won't remove clothes after isha till Fajr?
It is crystal clear the purpose of removing clothes at midday is coz of Heat.. They may remove depend on each.. Even they may not remove... So no privacy.. Is clothe removal for sex then does God force them to have sex at midday ? No way... So Is it must to remove cloths since God ordered three privacy times?  No way... If they don't remove then there is no harm / sin in them... It's normal time as other time...
But what about after isha and before Fajr? It is must privacy in my understanding...  Kids taking permission is mandatory... And kids and parents mingling during this time is not even encouraged.. But for necessity with permission ....
Note the addition in the verse "There is no fault/sin/harm in you or them, apart from these (three times), that you go about one to the other..

So had God mentioned in the verse 24:58 as AFTER Salat Wusta privacy ... Too many confusions would have risen...
1..How Kids will judge that parents are having rest after Al Salat Al wusta OR without Salat... How even when they get up after rest they(kids) make sure that it is unrestricted time to mingle... Coz their only indication is Salat wusta if God mentioned so.. That's why it is not opted by God using salat... But other two Salat perfect... Before Fajr people in deep sleep and may be untidy with clothing... And after isha is of course night and needless to say.. And the time frame for both is very limited so kids will know by this time parents would have prayed.. So for after isha restrictions imposed and after Fajr restrictions lifted...
But it is impossible to use the word Salat for third privacy at midday.. So God rightly not used Salat ...

2.. Had God mentioned after Salat wusta privacy.. Then it will become mandatory that they Pray First then rest or remove clothes.. That's far from the truth of the time frame given by verse 17:78...

If anyone has doubt of order of Salat.. Note 24:58 how orderly God stated..
God mentioned first Salat Fajr... That's the start of day... Then mid day privacy (note above why Salat cannot be indication)
Third isha Salat and the day ends...
God could have mentioned first isha Salat then midday and then Fajr... But not.. He knows what is the order... No need to confuse...

Further if anyone has concern why the third Salat is called Wusta...  Then my only answer is God has assigned two salat at twyo ENDs so the third Salat definitely befit between those two ENDs.. Coz it is clear according 24:58 the Fajr Salat is first of the day...

Salat are Fajr > Wusta < Isha ...
Why wusta is emphasised..  Fajr and isha are falling in a more convenient time... Starting and end time...  But wusta is falling busy time and vulnerable with worldly desires. .. It is not surprising why God revealed salat wusta first 17:78...

Thanks for reading..

Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2020, 01:17:45 AM »
peace jkhan,

Rather than making baseless claims, I recommend actually citing some evidence.

How can Duluki shams  be called as time of Isha.. Even if you insist that Duluki shams = sunset... Is SUNSET equal to ISHA....  Boy.. That's a big lie against Arabs and pure Arabic language.... Do you belie language of Arabic? That's far worse than conventional people who took Isha at its proper time...

Pay attention  to 11:114 carefully...
According to waqas...  Two ends are point of Sunrise and Sunset...  So Isha Salat timing is sorted out as the moment sunset UNTILL whatever of their choice of darkness.. So moment of sunset is = Isha literally ... That's a blasphemy to quran.. Has it ever recorded in any Arabic dictionary OR even in Quran that moment of sunset is = Isha... Bring evidence...

Who knows Arabic language better: jkhan or Arabic lexicons? Quote from lexicons:

Quote
isha - commencement of darkness, early night, dusk, evening.

Quote
Fa-Jiim-Ra = ...dawn/sunrise/daybreak



Quote from: jkhan
That's how TWO ENDs work out for waqas ... But unfortunately that's not the instructions of God...  (That's why I always reiterate that TWO ENDs are TWO  TWILIGHTS  period

That's what I'm saying! Quote from my article:
Quote
salat al fajr / salat (of) the dawn/morning
As it's name suggests it is done around dawn (morning twilight). This can correctly be deemed one edge of the daytime and also involves a proximity of the night. Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.
To clarify: this timed-salat begins at morning twilight and ends when any part of the sun first appears above the horizon (i.e. end of morning twilight)
salat al isha / salat (of) the dusk/evening
As it's name suggests it is done around dusk (evening twilight). This can correctly be deemed one edge of the daytime and also involves the proximites of the night. Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.
To clarify: this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight).

I never read the rest of your post, sorry, as I consider your critique quality thus far to be poor. Hence why I recommended one point at a time to make things easier.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

hawk99

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2020, 04:55:01 AM »
Peace Wakas,

Is it your conclusion that there are 3 daily ritual salat?

Which prayer is 17:78 referring to in your opinion?

The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

good logic

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2020, 05:08:23 AM »
Peace Wakas.
 You say ,quote:
I agree that in 50:39 it could mean "before the setting / passing away / departing / retiring / removing /disappearing / remoteness (of the sun)." and the superficial understanding how you take it i.e. "sunset" (sun below horizon) is one possibility.
BUT as has been shown previously this word doesn't pinpoint at what exact point of this process it is referring to:

Explain how it could mean any other point than the ending of the setting? i.e sunset.
I have explained this  and it makes a lot of sense ,
 A deadline of  before Al Ghurub pin points the exact time, End of daytime and beginning of night. i.e sunset: Just like "
"before tului Al Shams" pinpoints at exactly the end of nightime and beginning of daytime. i.e sunrise.
The only logical explanation. 

As for this, quote:
The reason I wrote "setting of the sun / sunset" in the article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
Is because I take "setting of the sun" to mean when the sun disc touches down on the horizon (i.e. rubs/press it, i.e. duluk) and "sunset" as when the sun is below the horizon. It just so happens "duluk al shams" could mean both. Unlike you (and some others) I'm not going to make a baseless claim it can only mean one thing. Such a claim is utter nonsense and damages the credibility of anyone who claims such a thing.

With no evidence from Qoran, it remains your claim. And baseless at that just like you call the claims of others.. And your credibility remains intact?  Not logical.
Brother. You claimed your work was without errors, now feww posts down the line you are adding these, quote:

"In any case I have updated the article and added the words in red to help clarify for you and others:"

"But I am partly to blame as I never clarified it DIRECTLY in my article and simply linked to an article which explained it further. I should have known some people wouldn't bother reading up on it before attempting to criticise. I may have to include that info directly at some point."

"In any case, my point regarding evidence still stands, if you take 17:78 as do salat at A (i.e. noon in your view) then it would be nice to have some examples from Quran. The best examples would be other verses with a command X li A ila B, but there may be no other examples, I haven't researched it as it's a difficult thing to research.".

I am afraid that your article is your view, you may insist  these are not really errors and argue around them, but the bottom line is that a sound argument with no errors does not require any tweeks or change.
For me, you are entitled to claim  and stick with your claim, but can you see my point?
 I explained "duluk" poin is a declinet, if a decline of the sun starts at Noon, just before sunset and sunset are points way after noon. And l to me you have not provided evidence from Qoran that your timing is the right point of decline or that it means any of them?
Remember you have not researched this point?

So it is understandable I see the two points of  "sun setting and time frame as errors.. My aim  in answering you is to make this point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2020, 02:06:48 AM »
Peace everyone ...

Concerns may be oozing to certain people.. what exactly Quran orders to pray and at what times... Why it is so hard and why so many contradictory convictions within those who accepts Quran alone for guidance..

But God with manifest verse stated, those are the successful who guard the Salat and they are believers.. 23:1-10

So,  if we are to adhere to what Waqas claim either we are skipping one salat or doing extra salat/s... Whatever we do we go against God's instructions unless we opted the right guidance... Definitely it is not optional.. Isn't it?

The reason is.. God insist as an order to Guard the Salawat (prayers)  2:238 meanwhile God claim those who guard salawat are believers and the successful ones 23:1-10..

Isn't there a serious issue creeping in then?.
 
Dear brothers and sisters.. Can we say to God ...
*** We were not aware what is written in Quran so we prayed 5 times...
*** We thought it is mentioned three times.. So we did continue..
*** W heard from people like waqas that it is 2 times so we skipped day prayer...

I just furnished possible statements that people may utter on the day of ressurection if we chose the wrong option...

So,  people go for the best option and the best explanation within Quran and follow what God guides you with..

If everything is right, then there is no need for God to provide fixed timing for Salat and reiterate to guard them..

4:103 "... ..... Verily, the PRAYER(singular) is enjoined on the believers at fixed hours" ...
Does it mean only one salat per day? Not at all..

Ultimately, nothing is argued or bought into table comprehensively by the author of the article...
So, I do remain with my understanding and continue to perform three times...
May Allah guide us all which takes us to Janna..

That's all I have to say on this topic... Had there been any reasonable logic in the debate, surely I would have paid attention to it.. But there is nothing...
Nothing more to say on this topic...

jemby97

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2020, 05:04:36 AM »
Salam Everyone,

i think this video explaination by Brother Joseph Yaseen of Quran Centric will best explain this issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKoYRWrsBiQ

Thank you.

Salam

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2020, 05:38:02 AM »
Salam Everyone,

i think this video explaination by Brother Joseph Yaseen of Quran Centric will best explain this issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKoYRWrsBiQ

Thank you.

Salam

Peace..
That's not true dude... That's far from Quran... Quran is more than sufficient for me...
You can follow, if you are satisfied with it and be responsible for what you do..
God guide you and me and all..

jemby97

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2020, 06:01:35 AM »
Salam Jkhan

Thank you Brother.

God bless

amin

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2020, 09:36:47 PM »
Peace everyone ...

Concerns may be oozing to certain people.. what exactly Quran orders to pray and at what times... Why it is so hard and why so many contradictory convictions within those who accepts Quran alone for guidance..

But God with manifest verse stated, those are the successful who guard the Salat and they are believers.. 23:1-10

So,  if we are to adhere to what Waqas claim either we are skipping one salat or doing extra salat/s... Whatever we do we go against God's instructions unless we opted the right guidance... Definitely it is not optional.. Isn't it?

The reason is.. God insist as an order to Guard the Salawat (prayers)  2:238 meanwhile God claim those who guard salawat are believers and the successful ones 23:1-10..

Isn't there a serious issue creeping in then?.
 
Dear brothers and sisters.. Can we say to God ...
*** We were not aware what is written in Quran so we prayed 5 times...
*** We thought it is mentioned three times.. So we did continue..
*** W heard from people like waqas that it is 2 times so we skipped day prayer...

I just furnished possible statements that people may utter on the day of ressurection if we chose the wrong option...

So,  people go for the best option and the best explanation within Quran and follow what God guides you with..

If everything is right, then there is no need for God to provide fixed timing for Salat and reiterate to guard them..

4:103 "... ..... Verily, the PRAYER(singular) is enjoined on the believers at fixed hours" ...
Does it mean only one salat per day? Not at all..

Ultimately, nothing is argued or bought into table comprehensively by the author of the article...
So, I do remain with my understanding and continue to perform three times...
May Allah guide us all which takes us to Janna..

That's all I have to say on this topic... Had there been any reasonable logic in the debate, surely I would have paid attention to it.. But there is nothing...
Nothing more to say on this topic...

So you think God will punish if we do less or more number of Salat ritual, so whats that ritual, how you do it, did  God taught you how it should be done through the book Quran?