Author Topic: New article: salat timings as per The Quran  (Read 5307 times)

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5175
  • Karma +2/-0
Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2020, 01:58:50 PM »
Peace Wakas.
The setting of the sun means only one things sunset. i.e sun has just set-gone below horizon-. However you say this, quote:
peace GL,
Yes I view "setting of the sun" and "sunset" as slightly different. Why did you think I put both in, for the fun of it? Have you even read my articles? I note you dodged answering if you had actually read the articles I referred you to. I will not answer any further questions from you that are already explained in the articles I refer you to. If you don't want to read them that's up to you.

You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).

In this case why put both in your translation  if you view them as slightly different? And how different? Explain how the setting of the sun and sunset differ? You do not make sense?

Now you give me your weakest verse from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset? The weakest you can find?

Brother, you are now just insisting  that regardless of Qoran s view, your view is correct.
Your excuse is "I have not read your article",?
 This is an obvious error in your translation of 17:78, one does not need to go further ,If you are using two different times according to you( setting of the sun/sunset, then duluk Al Shams means both or both are the same?
Or is this not logical?

For the second issue I am asking you to detail this salat that Qoran is asking you to observe for the full duration from the setting of the sun/sunset to darkness. How long , what to do and how?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5175
  • Karma +2/-0
Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2020, 03:46:12 PM »
Peace Wakas.
I will deal with this point, quote:
You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).

Verse - 50 :39: فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ
Can only mean two things about the sun
Sunrise and sunset.
قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ    Before the sun is visible, once it starts to rise it is no longer true as it is sunrise.(Otherwise the expression will describe which stage in the process of the rising of the sun)
Similarlyوَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ  While the sun is still visible it is before sunset, hence Ghurub must be sunset,(Otherwise the expression would have given the stage of the  process of the sun partly setting). Ghurub can only mean the sun not visible ,hence gone below the horizon.
 Al Ghurub= sunset in this verse.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1151
  • Karma +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2020, 05:54:19 PM »
Peace...
I am extremely sorry, you don't respond as it deserve...
If you think ORDER OF REVELATION  is not verifiable then at least you could have pointed out flaw in it... It's OK.. I won't compel you to take it... If you take... That's the end of your two salat conviction....

My inner instinct says keep away from this topic, but something is propelling me go tell the people those who would reflect... So dear Waqas.. These replies not gonna make any sense... But let people decide what is right...

So.. Whatever God guided me with,  I submit to people..

My point is to those who reflect ...

If Waqas say 17:78 is Salat Al Isha and if the timing for it.. That is to say..from sun set darkness of night... Ponder... Then what is the meaning of 11:114 ... For what reason...
11:114 is referring Two Ends of Nahar...  So one of the Salat is Isha... The other one is Fajr...

Anyone tell me with common sense...
*** If God explained Isha Salat with extra verse 17:78 by explaining its timing,  why skipped the timing of Fajr by extra verse?
What is the time of Fajr??

So we have to trace the time of Fajr by 11:114 ONLY?  WHY..
IF  we can trace the time of Fajr by merely the verse of 11:114 then why can't we trace the timing of Isha which is the one of the TWO Ends..

What logic in it folks..?

So God thought that people will not be able trace the timing of 11:114 of the timing of Isha so HE should explain with additional verse.. What a nonsensical way that is?

So how's the way of finding timing of Fajr self? 

Impossible my dear fellow brothers and sisters.. That's not the way of God...

Can anyone tell what is the timing of Fajr without the verse of 11:114?  No Right.. Coz 11:114 is very manifest... So if one salat is manifest why other end is unclear? Further 17:78 and 11:114 doesn't even look identical.. You know why?  11:114 is "zulafan minal  layl" while  17:78 is "Ila ghashakal aL lail"

Are these identical my dear fellow believers ? May be for Waqas... Not for me... God doesn't need to confuse people.. And He explained so simply without ambiguity.. But you took it and conventional people took it upside down..

But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical..

To say Yes.. You have to be out of your mind...

Hope it benefits for those who reflect..

So isn't 11:114 enough for both the salat, if the same verse merely is enough for Fajr Salat?

Cerberus

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 624
  • Karma +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2020, 04:46:02 AM »
peace Cerebrus,
Ahh I see your confusion. You think my list below is sequential, i.e. point 1 leads to point 2 leads to point 3 etc. It's not sequential. I didn't think people would take it as sequential so I may have to clarify that. How about I reword it to:

I recommend you research the form "al salat al wusta" in comparison to "salat al fajar", and if you feel the use of singular and plural address in Quran is haphazard and thus irrelevant that's up to you.



It's not me who is confusing anything. It is your article.

You have listed with numbers your arguments. At POINT 3 you refer to some "understanding" saying: "it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical."

What understanding is it ? You presented 2 arguments before. Point 1 laid out your base argument. Point 2 added to it. Point 3 refered to an understanding. I already proved that whatever point 3 is refering to makes little sense in relation to Point 1 and Point 2 as they're not strong enough to justify Point 3.

Now you say they are not in order, meaning that Point 3 was randomly put there refering to an "understanding" that hasn't been laid out yet ? That seems like a flaw to me isn't it ?

Anyways, I said what I wanted to say. That's all for me here.

In relation to Salat in general, I don't think the typical quran-only approach of digging in linguistic and doing these kind of weird analysis of verses makes much sense. If SALAT had a purpose, then its purpose justifies its timing. Lay out the correct purpose of the salat and find out what is the most logical timings to fulfill it. It's not the other way around. This in my opinion is more logical than what you're trying to achieve in your article.

In my understanding of the purpose of "Salat" as a meditative act, I would say the start of one's day, throughout one's day and at the end of one's day.  No more specific than that

hawk99

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2020, 04:18:29 PM »

my understanding of the purpose of "Salat" as a meditative act, I would say the start of one's day, throughout one's day and at the end of one's day.  No more specific than that

We agree.

Peace Brother Wakas another approach to consider would be to ascertain
when salat is prohibited , I think that would be an indicator of
how many salat there are.


                                               :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11166
  • Karma +13/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2020, 08:00:50 AM »
peace GL,
I agree that in 50:39 it could mean "before the setting / passing away / departing / retiring / removing /disappearing / remoteness (of the sun)." and the superficial understanding how you take it i.e. "sunset" (sun below horizon) is one possibility.
BUT as has been shown previously this word doesn't pinpoint at what exact point of this process it is referring to:

Quote
You have refuted yourself. In 18:86 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".

Quote
You then cited 18:17 so let's take a closer look:

"And you may have seen the sun when it rose inclining away from their cave to the right AND when it GhRBat passing away (from) them to the left..."

1) underlined words are perfect verbs
2) the verse states it would have possible to see what occurred to the sun
3) GhRBat is in the perfect tense BUT "passing away" (taqridu) is in the imperfect (i.e. an action incomplete or in the process of being done). Similarly "inclining away" is imperfect.

According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?

Not only did you have no direct reply to any of the above, it is likely why you subtly changed your claim from "sunset" to ""Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..." i.e. the process of setting.


In any case, it doesn't make any difference to my view whether that word means sun below horizon or in the process of setting. I cover these verses here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

The reason I wrote "setting of the sun / sunset" in the article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
Is because I take "setting of the sun" to mean when the sun disc touches down on the horizon (i.e. rubs/press it, i.e. duluk) and "sunset" as when the sun is below the horizon. It just so happens "duluk al shams" could mean both. Unlike you (and some others) I'm not going to make a baseless claim it can only mean one thing. Such a claim is utter nonsense and damages the credibility of anyone who claims such a thing.

Quote
The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.

I simply chose a meaning that results in the utmost logic, coherence, practicality and clarity, and asked others to find a flaw/error in this understanding.

I will add another, it also results in symmetry of timings.


But I am partly to blame as I never clarified it DIRECTLY in my article and simply linked to an article which explained it further. I should have known some people wouldn't bother reading up on it before attempting to criticise. I may have to include that info directly at some point.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11166
  • Karma +13/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2020, 08:04:18 AM »

Now you say they are not in order, meaning that Point 3 was randomly put there refering to an "understanding" that hasn't been laid out yet ? That seems like a flaw to me isn't it ?

Hasn't been laid out? It's in the first paragraph of the article!

Original:
Quote
Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this are as follows:

In any case I have updated the article and added the words in red to help clarify for you and others:

Quote
Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this understanding are as follows, listed in no particular order:



All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11166
  • Karma +13/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2020, 08:08:19 AM »
peace jkhan,
I appreciate you trying to critique, but can you make one point at a time?

Also please ensure you have read my article carefully because you say things like this "But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical.." which clearly shows you have mistaken my view.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

SarahY

  • Global Moderator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • Karma +2/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2020, 11:36:26 AM »
There's a lot of ambiguity with salat.

I agree with you in that the Quran seems to emphasis and name 2 salats.

I don't know if I agree with it being the minimum because there seems to be a call to do more or to perform salat if called upon it in preference over transactions,sports or distractions see: 62:10-11

We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1151
  • Karma +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2020, 07:36:24 PM »
peace jkhan,
I appreciate you trying to critique, but can you make one point at a time?

Also please ensure you have read my article carefully because you say things like this "But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical.." which clearly shows you have mistaken my view.

Salam Waqas...

Brother I did read your article or not is immaterial .. Coz I have read the Quran and it has guided me about Salat .. In addition your claim of Two Salat is not new for me... Coz I have read all your articles... But I never was against what you write which is in line with Quran... Unfortunately not this time...

Regardless of whatever written in your article, the truth from your side is two salat is your acceptance..

That's why I question you...
For you 17:78 and 11:114 both Salat Isha... That's what you say with transperancy....
So brother...  11:114 and 17:78 is same for you coz even how much you try to say No, it won't work out.. Coz Isha Salat has a timing and that timing for you is 11:114 and 17:78... But how different both the verses you failed to grasp (How come one take the same Salat by both the verses while both verses entirely different). So what is the point of asking me better read your article or saying you've mistaken my view..
Truth is You have mistaken horribly the three Salat and stuck in it without being able to get out of it... 

I have given my knowledge of Quran to people... And it is not my intention to grab your 10$ ... Hope those who reflect would reflect...