New article: salat timings as per The Quran

[TellMeTheTruth]

Salam, brother Wakas!
What is your take on the expression قبل غروبھا (BEFORE its setting)? 50:39

Hope my question is clear now.

Thanks & peace!

[Cerberus]

peace all,

The regular/timed salat from The Quran: how many and when?
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

The Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the above you will be eligible for $100 USD per error/flaw or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.

Sure. I'll have to preface this with the fact that this question does not interest me as I find it to be useless.

But let see what you claimed, and whether it makes sense for you to claim what you claim, and with such confidence.


You took the following verse:

24:58 O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.,

The above verse, that defines specific instances where certain people should request permission, and in doing so, the verse mentioned two salat. And so you concluded the following:

- Since the verse, that by the way talks about permission/privacy (completely unrelated) happened to mention two salat, lo and behold, there must be exactly and only two salat !

I hope I made your illogical argument clear enough.

[jkhan]

Peace...
I am surprised the way you are dealing this topic.. You have sealed your assumptions... And not ready to give any thoughts... With that attitude it's hard to unearth the truth.. I don't  see anything wrong in the responses of GL... But you skip and pointing him as weak and keeping your long felt dislike on him I guess.. That's obvious even you say no... You never answered my reply connected with 23:09...

Anyhow.. I don't know whether you believe in Quran order of revelation... If you don't believe in, then bring a single error according to Quran order of revelation and how the verses revealed.. I assure you, you will never be able to indicate a single.. For example fasting... If God said fast in Quran that verse cannot be before the verse when to fast..(verse may be before if in same chapter but not in another chapter)  coz all chapter has order of revelation...

Accordingly... God has revealed the Mid Salat first and then ordered Salat at two ENDs... Take all Salat verses... None of the Salat verses (for prayer and not Salat = moral/ethic verses) appears before the timing of salat is revealed... Very meticulously go through the order before rushing to answer.. I know you will be blinded in this manifest evidence.. Let's hope at least the viewers will ponder..

God ordered to pray in 17:78 first of three Salat... And explained in 17:110 how to perform it...   This chapter order of revelation is 50th
Then the next two salat is revealed in the chapter 11th which order of revelation is 52nd....

11:114 "And perform the Salat at the two ends of the day but near parts of the night ..... ..."

Whatever pertaining to Salat (prayer) in entire Quran is reveled after these two chapters...

So dear brothers and sisters how come there is no salat at mid day and that last long period till sun set and darkness creep in..

Fajr and isha is mere a time period which exist in the society... And the salat God ordered fall within these period.. So God called it using these two periods and named it isha and Fajr Salat... But it is not their real names... So God called them without AL but mere  Salat Al... ...
But for Mid Salat God used AL  Salat Al Wusta ...it has big emphasis.. It is the first of the Salat ordered for those who never practiced Salat in life.. While others who were given scriptures practicing.. Second it is the most vulnerable Salat that can be skipped during day time.. Like Sulaiman missed (he can remember God at any time but Salat is time fixed that's why he was concerned)..
Third ..importantly, the Salat AL wusta has lengthy period than other two Salat.. So no typical Arabic word like isha OR Fajr are for this period... So God uses Wusta with AL  to emphasize...

Go research all Salat(prayer) verses and let me know I am wrong in connection with ORDER OF REVELATION....  I bet you will never be able to... If you then the order of revelation  has to have something wrong.. That I don't expect...
God preserved how quran was revealed and with which chapters first and last and the complete readable order as well with reason...

Hope it benefits for those who wish to reflect..

Find the truth and not the adamence of view...

If as Waqas claim 17:78 is salat isha thrn no need to repeat it as timing in 11:114...
In that case 11:114 is more Th add n enough if ONLY two salat..

Your claim is so fragile but you alone think so... While you have some very robust articles that are comprehensive

[Wakas]

peace GL,
Please look up the definitions of "clear" and "error". Essentially your objection (not clear error) is that I haven't proven "duluk al shams" is "sunset" and you haven't proven it isn't.
I have no idea what you're referring to with the time frame issue so cannot comment further.

Of course there is room for improvement in any work however I am asking for actual verifiable errors/flaws.


peace TMTT,
Please see the links in the article in which further detail is provided, e.g. this one.


peace jkhan,
Again I didn't see you pointing out an error/flaw, and it now seems your argument is based on unverifiable chronological order of revelation. Also I have a section with deals with "wusta" here.


peace Cerebrus,
I note how you had to re-word my argument, according to your interpretation. In any case I would agree with you IF that was my only argument.

[Cerberus]

peace Cerebrus,
I note how you had to re-word my argument, according to your interpretation. In any case I would agree with you IF that was my only argument.

I reworded your argument so that YOU can see the flaw. But I guess I have to take baby steps with you so that you don't run away.

You asked for a flaw and will show you one. I'm not debating your entire argument, nor do I care about what that whole thing is about.


From your link:

• POINT 1:  there are only two salat mentioned in The Quran in a reference format (see 24:58, salat al fajr, and, salat al isha). Note that "al salat al wusta" in 2:238 is not in the same form [see point 11 here].
• POINT 2: the ONLY verse in the plural address to the mumineen which mentions a timed-salat is 24:58 which only has two timings.
• POINT 3: it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.

Your base argument, POINT 1, in itself refers to verse 24:58 that happens to mention two salats while it is talking about timings where people should request permission.
POINT 2, you claim 24:58 is the only verse "in the plural address to the mumineen that mentions a time-based salat. Sure I'll take your word for it.
POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".

Explain how a verse that mentions specific timings for people to request permission (for privacy reasons apparently) is now providing a clear-time range for each salat. And how is it the most logical and coherent one ?

Your entire argument is based on the fact that there has been a mention of two salats, implying there is a significance to that in relation to the total number of salats. It doesn't, not logically atleast. Three timings were mentioned in that verse, two of them happened to be salat related, how does that give you a hint about the total number of salats ? Well you assumed it does and you carried on in the rest of your article in finding bits and pieces here and there trying to consolidate your first point.

[good logic]

Peace Wakas.

So you ignore evidence from Qoran that the setting of the sun/sunset is "Al Ghurub"," Ghurub Al Shams2, or Ghurubiha(when the subject is the sun), like given to you here:
Chapter 50 Qaf سورة ق - Qaf: Verse 39
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ

Is this "Al Ghurub" here not the setting of the sun/sunset? Like "Tuluu Al Shams " here is the rising of the sun/sunrise?

And here:
Chapter 20 Taha سورة طه - Taha: Verse 130
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ غُرُوبِهَا ۖ وَمِنْ آنَاءِ اللَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْ وَأَطْرَافَ النَّهَارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرْضَىٰ

Remember in claiming to refute me about other verses(that were talking about the subject of "the sun setting", you conveniently left out 20:130, . was this deliberate since you said, quote:

GL first said "maghrib al shams" means "sunset".
I provided evidence that "maghrib" actually means setting time/place.
GL then said "ghurub al shams" describes "sunset" and cited no verse where this phrase occurs (so we can only assume he means when "ghurub" refers to "shams" it means "sunset"), so he cited 18:86, 20:130.
I refuted his claim regarding 18:86.
GL had no direct response and then cited 18:17.
I analysed 18:17 and asked him a simple question how his view can work with this verse.
GL completely avoids answering and then subtly changes his view to "Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..."
Note how he doesn't say "sunset"! i.e. his claim now is this word describes the process of setting not only "sunset"

You said nothing about 20:130?
I say this clearly refutes your take that Duluk Al Shams is the setting of the sun/sunset.
Or are you going to be inconsistent about your approach to Qoran analysis? i.e wanting evidence from Qoran from others while ignoring evidence against you from Qoran?

As for "Time frame" ,it means between certain times not to do salat from -to like you assume this is the total lenght of the salat. What is the details of this salat that takes all this time?.
If it was the case,the Arabic for time frame  in the verse would have been "Bayna sunset - ila/wa darkness.
Is this clear to you brother?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Wakas]

peace Cerebrus,

Explain how a verse that mentions specific timings for people to request permission (for privacy reasons apparently) is now providing a clear-time range for each salat.

Where did I say 24:58 provides a clear time-range for each salat? Perhaps it is I who has to baby-step you through my argument so you understand it. It's ok I see where you may have got confused: Pay careful attention to my use of "understanding" which refers to my overall position on this issue not a certain verse. You alluded to it here:

POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".

And how is it the most logical and coherent one ?

Simple. Quran only mentions two, two time-ranges can be understood with start/end points for each, no verse contradicts this position, it's practical for people/community to implement, it uses easily discernible points in the day etc.



peace GL,
"ghurub" can refer to "setting/withdrawing/departing / becoming remote". You never showed in any verse it means "sunset" (i.e. sun below horizon). I have already covered 20:130 in my SaBiH article which is linked in the article. Have you read it?

Re: timeframe
I think I see the point you are trying to make now, and that is:
According to you if Quran meant do salat from A to B continuous it would have said "do salat bayna/between A ila/wa B".
Whereas I have understood A ila/to B to mean continuous, i.e. do salat from A to B. (and this is not your view)

Simplified:
GL's view: 17:78 does not mean continuous timeframe A ila/to B.
My view: 17:78 means a continuous timeframe A ila/to B.

Have I understood you correctly?
If so, you will have to provide evidence for your view from Quran. I provided a perfect example from 5:6 wash hands to/ila elbows, unless you only wash parts from hand to elbow.

[Cerberus]

peace Cerebrus,
Where did I say 24:58 provides a clear time-range for each salat? Perhaps it is I who has to baby-step you through my argument so you understand it. It's ok I see where you may have got confused: Pay careful attention to my use of "understanding" which refers to my overall position on this issue not a certain verse. You alluded to it here:

POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".

Simple. Quran only mentions two, two time-ranges can be understood with start/end points for each, no verse contradicts this position, it's practical for people/community to implement, it uses easily discernible points in the day etc.

Yes I have alluded to your "understanding" and I intentionally put the quotation marks
.
To simplify, always good to simplify to get rid of any obfuscations, I'm re-wording your 3 points in the following:

Point 1: Verse 24:58 the only verse that mentions two salats in a certain format - salat wusta doesn't count since it has a different form or whatever.

Point 2: Verse 24:58 the only verse that mentions two salats in a plural address to the mumineen - not sure how does that advances anything.

Point 3: AD VERBATIM it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.


Where is the logic ?  What you proposed in point 1 and 2 do not justify point 3. In other words, BIAS. Hence the flaw of your argument.
You took 24:58,selectively attributed some characteristics to it, format + plural address to the mumineen (How does that give it any power?) ,jumps to point 3 to claim this "understanding" is the most logical coherent understanding, hello ?

[good logic]

Peace Wakas.
You say, quote:
peace GL,
"ghurub" can refer to "setting/withdrawing/departing / becoming remote". You never showed in any verse it means "sunset" (i.e. sun below horizon). I have already covered 20:130 in my SaBiH article which is linked in the article. Have you read it?

Do you mean the setting of the sun and sunset are two different things?
You are playing a strange game , every translation has setting of the sun /sunset for the verses(50:39 and 20:130) like you translated 17:78. Are you changing your translation of 17:78 now?
Translate 50:39 and 20:130 for us then?
As for the sun below horizon , it is ambiguous, how long after?,  Once Ghurub/sunset happens anytime after is after sunset and not sunset.
It is strange how you are playing with meaning of words to get out of the problem!

Qoran even deals with when the sun is below the horizon a ,here:
Chapter 6 The cattle سورة الأنعام - Al-Anaam: Verse 78
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ
Afalat, ,where does your duluk come into it?
Oh and here is your translation,quote:
17:78 uphold the salat (at/for) the setting of the sun / sunset to the darkness of the night and reading (of) the dawn...
You translate Duluk Al Shams as setting of the sun/sunset
Now check all the translations of Qoran about 50:39 and 20:130 they all have setting of the sun//sunset for ghurub.
There is only one setting of the sun/sunset brother.

Now the second issue: you say ,quote:
Re: time frame
I think I see the point you are trying to make now, and that is:
According to you if Quran meant do salat from A to B continuous it would have said "do salat bayna/between A ila/wa B".
Whereas I have understood A ila/to B to mean continuous, i.e. do salat from A to B. (and this is not your view)

No ,that is not what I said. I will have to explain again:
Time frame is between two times. you are saying  that 17:78 gives a time frame. The Arabic of the verse does not agree with you.
if you take it as from-to, like you do it gives the total lenght of the salat.. i.e one continuous long salat?
If it was a time frame of between two times the Arabic would have been "Bayna-ila/wa..

So I am asking you if it is one long continuous salat give us the details of it to see if if there exist such a salat.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Wakas]

peace Cerebrus,
Ahh I see your confusion. You think my list below is sequential, i.e. point 1 leads to point 2 leads to point 3 etc. It's not sequential. I didn't think people would take it as sequential so I may have to clarify that. How about I reword it to:

Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this are as follows, listed in no particular order:

1) there are only two salat mentioned in The Quran in a reference format (see 24:58, salat al fajr, and, salat al isha). Note that "al salat al wusta" in 2:238 is not in the same form [see point 11 here].
2) the ONLY verse in the plural address to the mumineen which mentions a timed-salat is 24:58 which only has two timings.
3) it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.
4) it is the ONLY understanding that I have seen which respects the Arabic (i.e. other understandings ignore word forms, grammar, are inconsistent or make baseless claims)
5) all verses in the plural address which mention a timed-SaBiH/glorification or timed-THiKR/rememberance reference morning and evening (i.e. two timings)
6) all verses which mention a timed-SaBiH or timed-THiKR which could be interpreted as more than two timings are in the singular address [see article]
7) it is the ONLY understanding that can encompass other salat-timing systems such as thrice daily, or 5 daily, since it is a minimum of two.
8 ) it is the ONLY understanding that shows when The Quran mentions salat timings in a verse it always mentions the obligatory timings (i.e. two) together, unlike other understandings which say Quran sometimes mentions two here, three there, one here, one there etc. Making the understanding presented here the clearest of the variant views.
9) it is the ONLY timing system which works in all parts of the world. This will be explained later..

I recommend you research the form "al salat al wusta" in comparison to "salat al fajar", and if you feel the use of singular and plural address in Quran is haphazard and thus irrelevant that's up to you.

peace GL,
Yes I view "setting of the sun" and "sunset" as slightly different. Why did you think I put both in, for the fun of it? Have you even read my articles? I note you dodged answering if you had actually read the articles I referred you to. I will not answer any further questions from you that are already explained in the articles I refer you to. If you don't want to read them that's up to you.

You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).


Ok, now I understand what you are saying about time frame. Here is a little tip, why not clarify and say something like this:
Do you take "time frame" to mean:
1) one continuous length of time, i.e. that whole period is the length of the timed-salat
or
2) a time period in which one can do the timed-salat, i.e. it does not have to be for the whole length of the time period.

See how easy that was?

I take it as (1) but as I said before, in my view, the Quran is giving an exemplar/model to follow.

In any case, my point regarding evidence still stands, if you take 17:78 as do salat at A (i.e. noon in your view) then it would be nice to have some examples from Quran. The best examples would be other verses with a command X li A ila B, but there may be no other examples, I haven't researched it as it's a difficult thing to research.