Author Topic: New article: salat timings as per The Quran  (Read 26969 times)

tutti_frutti

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #100 on: June 19, 2021, 09:50:35 AM »
peace jkhan

i think the verse is enough to understand the prayer times

salat isha - evening prayer so that answers that … its when the sun sets throughout the night

salat fajr - starts when the thread of light is distinguished from the night (as per the fasting guidelines in surah 2)

just to share my understanding of salat:

1) starting at sunset till darkness of the night and throughout the night (i think perhaps its non-stop form moment of sunset till darkness outside and then in throughout in parts of the night)

2) fajr (very first light of dawn a.k.a. naughtical dawn?) i personally use my own sight and pray whenever i see the thread myself or i start a bit before)

3) al wusta whenever the people gather which today is friday at duhr (although i think the actual wusta is after “lunch break” as i understand that there is a period where people go home and relax as per 24:58)

there is no 1 or 2 or 3 etc prayers that last 10 mn or so i think but rather long hours spent in prostration and sujud

just to reiterate my understanding:

there is evening prayer that lasts throughout the night (please also see first dozen verses of surah 73 and elsehwere in the Book we are told little did the people sleep and that from the night we prostrate)

then salat at the first light of dawn, and finally the wusta (i do once a week the wusta)

regarding the decline of the sun being noon, i disgaree if i may
in first verses of surah 73 we are told that during the day we have occupation and we are also told about the night being better for words and to stand 1/3 or 2/3 of the night … we are also told about protaration in the night in a couple of verse example 25:64

that is my understanding 😊 and of course i may be wrong

peace


nimnimak_11

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #101 on: June 19, 2021, 01:52:43 PM »
These are not what I (and hope you) call clear error/flaw/contradiction. They are what I commonly term "fluff".

Peace Wakas

Yes I agree it's not a contradiction. There are times where people have a go at what you say without the good intent of trying to gain a better understanding of salat timings (or salat itself), and there are times where they genuinely see something that's worth mentioning despite not wanting to have a go at you. I think good logic was of the latter because his self-restraint was incredible (clearly indicating his preference to not have a go at you).

Quote
The primary signification of DLK is rub/squeeze/press

To me, those words register something in relation to my idea of what salat itself is (though I did not know that that was the primary signification of DLK).

I've been reading Edip and Layth's reformist translation of the Quran (it's the only physical Quran I have) and I've seen some verses just be really forced through. By this I mean it seems to me that they've forced a meaning for a word despite it being at odds with the root of the word. It's almost like rushing to understand it, or forcing through in an oppressive manner. Though I do like their translation overall, they are too reformist/liberal. What I mean to say is that forcing things through is sometimes done in the name of progression or sensibility (despite the truth being such that those verses have not been made sensible to us yet for a reason). 

I interpreted you as determined to reach solid/sensilbe and uncontroversial conclusions and seeking reassurance, but I also interpreted you as perhaps tired/fatigued because when a genuine controversy was highlighted, I would not describe you as being welcoming towards it.

Because I interpret you this way, from my own experiences of fatigue/overwork I will suggest to you the following: Don't overwork yourself in an attempt to be sincere to God. The Bible talks about a day of rest, and death occurring where this is not done. Of course, the Quran also talks about those who transgress the Sabbath (perhaps indicating excessive rest is wrong). In an attempt to be sincere to God, I have with serious reluctance tried to really force myself to do something like religious research or philosophy, only to find myself experience what I can only describe as non-physical death. This is not an issue, but when you feel God's disapproval, it is both heartbreaking and terrifying (and I now think this was rooted in me treating God as though He was a tyrant, which is deeply unfair to God's Benevolence). The next time I reached/rubbed such a point, fear held me back. But I am oscillating between rest and work trying to raise standards in a God approved way. I don't want to transgress the Sabbath in any direction.

Consider 17:29 if what I've said has registered with you (my interpretation of you could be wrong, so I don't know if what I've said will register with you or not).

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #102 on: June 19, 2021, 06:50:46 PM »
peace jkhan

i think the verse is enough to understand the prayer times

salat isha - evening prayer so that answers that … its when the sun sets throughout the night

salat fajr - starts when the thread of light is distinguished from the night (as per the fasting guidelines in surah 2)

just to share my understanding of salat:

1) starting at sunset till darkness of the night and throughout the night (i think perhaps its non-stop form moment of sunset till darkness outside and then in throughout in parts of the night)

2) fajr (very first light of dawn a.k.a. naughtical dawn?) i personally use my own sight and pray whenever i see the thread myself or i start a bit before)

3) al wusta whenever the people gather which today is friday at duhr (although i think the actual wusta is after “lunch break” as i understand that there is a period where people go home and relax as per 24:58)

there is no 1 or 2 or 3 etc prayers that last 10 mn or so i think but rather long hours spent in prostration and sujud

just to reiterate my understanding:

there is evening prayer that lasts throughout the night (please also see first dozen verses of surah 73 and elsehwere in the Book we are told little did the people sleep and that from the night we prostrate)

then salat at the first light of dawn, and finally the wusta (i do once a week the wusta)

regarding the decline of the sun being noon, i disgaree if i may
in first verses of surah 73 we are told that during the day we have occupation and we are also told about the night being better for words and to stand 1/3 or 2/3 of the night … we are also told about protaration in the night in a couple of verse example 25:64

that is my understanding 😊 and of course i may be wrong

peace

Peace Tfruti...
Be patient with my lengthy reply.. 😬
Thank you for attempting to respond to my question...
As per your understanding 11:114 is two salat which are Isha and Fajr.. Well thank you.. That's what I also understand...
Then May I know what Salat is 17:78? Just for your knowledge my knowledge and for verification...
You say that 17:78 is not decline of sun at midday / noon.. 
But still at least once a week you perform Salat at Mid day(Wusta).. Based on what brother ?  Is it based on chapter Jumma?  Why can't it be at dawn or Fajr during haj as waqas article says.. Or even every year as traditional Eid gathering.. Why every Friday..

So it clearly indicates you have taken a salat at midday from nowhere coz 17:78 is not sun decline at midday for you but still a salat timing there beyond Quran verses.. .. That you need to explain for sure..

So you didn't answer my question literally ... So directly you accepted 11:114 are two salat isha and Fajr.. Timing is explained for both in one verse,  and failed to explain which Salat is 17:78 ... If you take by chance 17:78 as isha.. Then God failed to elaborate the other salat in 11:114 and its timing separate ..

Further.. I don't agree salat is long long hours... Look brother... Fajr Salat you said when the first sign of light appears at dawn.. (Ok if you are good enough to see the first light at dawn every day)..  Okay.. Then how long it last?  In my country max 1 hour these days.. Then sun rise.. Can we pray even after sun rise? 11:114 rejects it totally..
Then isha..  If you think once the sun set and long hours at night.. I don't agree.. Not my assumption but Quranic verses tones indicates it.. Read carefully the verse 24:58 ... Those children are allowed to Mingle before isha Salat.. But after isha Salat need permission..  When will this isha Salat be over for them to take permission? Literally after isha Salat and before Fajr Salat is one time. But God has pointed as two timing.. So clearly it shows there is long break between these two salat.. But if you pray long hours break between isha and Fajr won't be much..
You can thasbeeh God long hours as every individual wishes.. But Salat has timing...
In addition after isha Salat privacy.. That's really has meaning.. Even in 2:187 it says the nights of fasting is allowed for you near your women... So long Salat won't make sense practically... Don't compare specific moments depends on situation.. Chapter 73 is totally targeted to a group for specific reason. 

Note...  Practical issues of long Salat according to Quran...

If one take isha Salat once the sun goes down it means whenever sun set the privacy also comes into effect.. So it shows children should take dinner before sunset (or alone) or else they should take permission after isha Salat.. Also after isha Salat mingling is not permited..is it?  So..practically it becomes lot harder.. But if Isha Salat is after one or two hours later the sun set, this issue won't arise.. But if one takes sun set for starting of isha then unfortunately from the moment of sunset to sunrise is literally period of privacy forever. That's bizarre..
That's my understanding brother.. If it doesn't have meaning you can always negate in rationale manner..

Btw for me within Quran 17:78 is none other than decline of sun at midday... That best suit within Quran . I don't see anyone who explained with utmost logic to claim sunset.. Just assumptions with dictionaries.

Dear Tuti but I am not against what you do.. I am only taking Quran to explain...

tutti_frutti

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #103 on: June 23, 2021, 10:51:02 AM »
peace jkhan

i understand decline of the sun to mean sunset at least as, for example, in surah 73 we are told that we have occupation during the day, and the first verses emphasize on night to read Book and i think praying too
the verse also says "until the (darkness of?) night", so is it a continuous prayer? or is it different prayers that go throughout the night? i dont know, but i believe prayer starts at sunset

we are also told in a verse to prostrate from the night, and that little did people sleep and they forgo their beds to call upon The Lord (i am just paraphrasing my understanding of verses)... 

regarding salat al wusta, i do it whenever people gather and today it is on friday at a specific time (altho the timing could perhaps have been be after the lunch break and resting)

i believe we are also told in the verse about the gathering day prayer to drop all trade and  that after the prayer people go seek bounty from The God, so i take it that people have been working and will go work after the prayer, and as such the salat wusta happens during working hours

salat i believe has timings to begin, but the length is not short but rather long .. surah 73, and verses about little did people sleep, and they forgo their sides to call upon The Lord,and from the night to prostrate, .. these verses (which i am just paraphrasing) make me think that prayer is long and not short

that is my understanding, and of course, The God knows and we pray that He may please increase our knowledge

thank you very much jkhan for sharing

peace

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #104 on: June 23, 2021, 07:18:34 PM »
peace jkhan

i understand decline of the sun to mean sunset at least as, for example, in surah 73 we are told that we have occupation during the day, and the first verses emphasize on night to read Book and i think praying too
the verse also says "until the (darkness of?) night", so is it a continuous prayer? or is it different prayers that go throughout the night? i dont know, but i believe prayer starts at sunset

we are also told in a verse to prostrate from the night, and that little did people sleep and they forgo their beds to call upon The Lord (i am just paraphrasing my understanding of verses)... 

regarding salat al wusta, i do it whenever people gather and today it is on friday at a specific time (altho the timing could perhaps have been be after the lunch break and resting)

i believe we are also told in the verse about the gathering day prayer to drop all trade and  that after the prayer people go seek bounty from The God, so i take it that people have been working and will go work after the prayer, and as such the salat wusta happens during working hours

salat i believe has timings to begin, but the length is not short but rather long .. surah 73, and verses about little did people sleep, and they forgo their sides to call upon The Lord,and from the night to prostrate, .. these verses (which i am just paraphrasing) make me think that prayer is long and not short

that is my understanding, and of course, The God knows and we pray that He may please increase our knowledge

thank you very much jkhan for sharing

peace

Peace brother...

Thank you...
I don't get whether you answered my questions or you keep expressing your view..anyway let God guide us to straight path...

BTW.. Tuti don't complicate chapter 73... Long nights or 1/3 of nights etc is optional at any point of night.. Aren't they? It further says to get up from sleep coz one cover his blankets while sleeping.. It's not isha Fajr but extreme night.. To wake up.. It is not Salat.. Try to grasp that with deep sense... As I have explained in this forum before.. God has used word TILL in the verse 17:78 .. So when in a verse TILL is used it has definite time period...
How can God say TILL in one verse and say in another verse stand whole night or portion of night or one third... total contradiction.. So it clearly defines that is not Salat but another...
Why to perform salat beyond ILA ghashak AL Lail .. If you can pray beyond ghashak Al Lail why not one can pray beyond sun rise.  Why break rules defined..
Just clearly read 11:114 and 17:78 and ponder these two verses have defined timing.. Do within it and not before or after.. Salat is time fixed.. Would you like to pray before sun set.. If not why opposite brother..
God is perfect..


tutti_frutti

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2021, 01:33:18 PM »
peace jkhan

thank you for your reply

no where do i see in chapter 73 does The God mention anything about the night being “optional”, so we cant say it is “optional”

“till” yes of course denotes a time .. for me its till the deepest of the night … and the night does not end at 11 pm but ends when light comes in yeah? and that would be fajr right? so the “till” i understand does goes on throughout the night with no mention of when to stop but to its deepest moments .. could be to the beginning of fajr
the words used (based on translation) is “till the darkness/deepest? of the night” … and as i think night ends with fajr then for each one to think about when they end their salat wih His permission and do whatever they can to push throughout the night maximum in prayer

i dont see anything in Quran about “little did they sleep” being about covering or blankets … so why would we assume its about covering themselves in blankets? i believe He said, and i just paraphrase my understanding of the verse, they forgoe their sides seeking their Lord

i dont look for “deep” meanings tho .. perhaps i am wrong but i try to take the Book at face value and i try not to interpet and just follow what is mentioned literally as i understand the verses (tho of course my understanding of the verses could be wrong and flawed and i could be clueless)
 
thank you very much jkhan for the share

peace my friend 😊

jkhan

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2021, 05:57:44 PM »
peace jkhan

thank you for your reply

no where do i see in chapter 73 does The God mention anything about the night being “optional”, so we cant say it is “optional”

“till” yes of course denotes a time .. for me its till the deepest of the night … and the night does not end at 11 pm but ends when light comes in yeah? and that would be fajr right? so the “till” i understand does goes on throughout the night with no mention of when to stop but to its deepest moments .. could be to the beginning of fajr
the words used (based on translation) is “till the darkness/deepest? of the night” … and as i think night ends with fajr then for each one to think about when they end their salat wih His permission and do whatever they can to push throughout the night maximum in prayer

i dont see anything in Quran about “little did they sleep” being about covering or blankets … so why would we assume its about covering themselves in blankets? i believe He said, and i just paraphrase my understanding of the verse, they forgoe their sides seeking their Lord

i dont look for “deep” meanings tho .. perhaps i am wrong but i try to take the Book at face value and i try not to interpet and just follow what is mentioned literally as i understand the verses (tho of course my understanding of the verses could be wrong and flawed and i could be clueless)
 
thank you very much jkhan for the share

peace my friend 😊

Peace  brother...

I wish God guide us and end this disagreement towards the exact truth... Let me and you and every believer choose the straight path.. There is no path than straight path for believers..

I am afraid you don't get what I mean...
Just look at the verses carefully again and again .  Why they can't be optional.. He can wake up little or half or even long night.. Don't forget God Himself says night is for sleep and rest and according to that only body is created.. Never to go against nature..
So if He choose half instead of long night.. It is fine and optional .. Coz God clearly given the option.. Even if he choose lesser than half then also option.. When God has clearly given option why you say no. .. No authority for bro.. Sorry..

Further.. Remember this chapter begining verses manifestly addressing the Messenger who received the Quran.. Not for us.. God talks specific purpose...
Why not understand the first verse in chapter 73... For you what does it mean?.. For me it says to Messenger to Get up from his sleep while he is wrapped up...

Accordingly.. First option isha cannot be after getting up from wraped up situation of sleep..
Second option.. Fajr.. It can be.. But clearly no.. When you get up at Fajr there won't be enough time left to be called long night... When someone get up at Fajr can there be long night  or half of it or less.. No.. Anyway every believer has to get up for Fajr Salat..
So dear it is not Salat.. Try to grasp..

Further.. I reiterate.. God clearly indicated three times for privacy.. So brother after isha and before Fajr are two time period.. If one prays from isha to Fajr then it is meaningless... Two prayers at two point of time.. In between clear rest.. Night we have made for you to sleep and rest.. If you don't sleep everyday sufficiently then needless to say how body reacts.. God says you have much work during day.. If you don't get enough sleep at night no-one would be able to work during day.. Those who Change nature only will suffer...

God had a purpose for messenger on chapter 73.. Try and understand the purpose of chapter 73 first few verses..

In addition.. True believers do spend extra little time at night time in remembering God.. Believers won't sleep up until our Sun rises like most do on weekends ... They would surely get up well before Fajr time..  Coz Fajr prayer and reading Quran all good works.. Even before sleep in parts of the night can Remember God..
But short and sweet.. Sleep and rest is mandatory everyday... That derives a person's mood for comfortable day...

But no need to sleep long nights... But I hope believers sleep what is enough.. I sleep at least 5 hours at night.. I don't regret in doing so.  Coz my body says it can't bear.

Don't make things complicated by going against nature... God doesn't expect that from us...
If you have major exam within month you may keep awakening longer at night.. that's hard.. That's worthy for a purpose.. Same Muhamed had a special task and he was advised to be awaken... He had got a mission.. No mission every day...

Note: pls Tuti let's stick to topic.. Coz brother Waqas doesn't prefer going off-topic.. That's true.. Long hours of Salat is not topic...

Further.. If in 17:78 had God used "Ghuribath shams" instead Dulak  then I do agree with two salat.. Even if it is mentioned Ghuribath it can only be a meaningless verse.. Since timing is already in 11:114..

Whatever fir me Salat three times is perfect in perfect QURAN

uq

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #107 on: June 27, 2021, 01:21:24 PM »
Peace Wakas,

Don't forget the other meaning of "zulaf" being "twilight periods."

This lets us translate "wa-zulafan min al-layl" as "and at twilight periods of the night."

As far as I understand, all definitions of "layl" given in Classical Arabic dictionaries begin after sunset.

So, whatever your understanding of Salah is, it must continue after sunset.

God knows best.
uq

Wakas

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #108 on: June 28, 2021, 12:47:54 AM »
peace uq,

Yes "twilight periods of the night" is ok also, but I have a slight preference for "proximal parts of the night" or "proximities of the night". They are similar.

And everything else you said doesn't conflict with what I wrote.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

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Re: New article: salat timings as per The Quran
« Reply #109 on: June 28, 2021, 02:11:04 AM »
My  questions:

1-When was the prophet given the command to "Aquimi The Salat"?
2-Did he know the details  of "the Salat"?
3- What,how and how many ?
4- Was "The Salat" done/existed" before  the prophet?
5- Can any research/es of this be found and what evidence do they contain?
...And so on to get to the truth of "The Salat".

This where I am spending my time trying to unravel, up to now I am here:

!Given its-The Salat- importance in Muslim worship, it follows
that the origins of salāt should be widely researched in the modern, secular study of Islam. This, however, is not the case. Relatively little has been published on the subject. Most of the detailed history comes from hadith narrations and biased documents that have no concrete evidence.

There are numerus thesis that always end in disappointment for me . The further they go ,the less evidence on finds. like for example-And this is just one of many -:
https://www.almuslih.org/Library/Hienz,%20J%20-%20The%20Origins.pdf

Perhaps the common theme is that Jews, Zoroastrians, Christians also had "The Salat" in some form or other...

Qoran, for a very good reason, remains the solid source that can highlight the inconstancies of  any research.. However , Qoran can also add the "test" factor that GOD intended  in it to sort out the true convictions and motives of GOD s servants.

While one should never give up the search for their"truth", one needs to trust in GOD Alone and see where Qoran takes them with this subject.
Each can only answer individually for their sincerity towards and understanding of GOD s instructions in the message.

For me the "sirat Al Mustaqueem"-straight path - of leading one s life comes first .One should be honest with themselves and only do what they understand best for themselves. Differences in understanding are the norm and GOD is the sole judge .
Why did GOD not clear everything up for everyone to clearly see is obvious FOR THIS LIFE AS HUMANS- for the test-..
What do you make of how,what and when of"The Salat " according to Qoran"?
That is what you should do.
GOD bless you all.
Peace
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