Author Topic: A Perspective on Salah  (Read 11387 times)

uq

  • Global Moderator
  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Posts: 411
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Perspective on Salah
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2016, 03:37:50 PM »
Peace,

Your study is good.

We agree on many points.

Keep studying and God will guide you further still.
uq

The Guided One

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: A Perspective on Salah
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2016, 04:08:23 PM »
Peace,

Your study is good.

We agree on many points.

Keep studying and God will guide you further still.

Selam,

Thank you very much i will keep on learning

Peace
The Words and Signs and Mercies of Allah are in all Creation, and can never be fully set out in human language, however extended our means may be imagined to be.

uq

  • Global Moderator
  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Posts: 411
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Perspective on Salah
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2021, 01:04:36 PM »
I have composed a simplified presentation of "A Perspective on Salah" with an introduction of why the Quran should be used to understand Salah. It's called "Is Salah in the Quran?"

Please note, the English is very basic in order to include the many non-native English speakers on this website and out there in the world.

It is a good introduction to Salah for those who charge the Quran with deficiency, and is suitable for Sunnis and curious non-Muslims alike. Please feel free to share.

My perspective on Salah has remained largely unchanged since the original post in 2008. The only thing worth noting here is that the phrase "wa-zulafan min al-layl" is validly interpreted to mean "and at twilight periods of the night."

The simplified presentation: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkotlTY_voT402ZM1b6GuNkX4mmZ?e=MoxDgh

The original 2008 paper: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkotlTY_voT402VJHzyLj6lYZjfC?e=V0XGe3
uq

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11358
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Perspective on Salah
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2021, 04:05:21 AM »
peace uq, all,

Since we are updating our views:

There are two aspects to the SBH question:

1) IF one takes SBH when mentioned along with a time as = salat, then can one make them fit time-wise? I consider this impossible and I have not read an article attempting to do so.

2) What is SBH? Once we understand this, we can determine if upholding/establishing the regular/timed salat is an act of SBH itself or not. Thus, potentially making "SBH is part of salat" moot.

I wrote an article on SaBiH and after careful analysis it turned out the timings may fit. I believe this was a unique finding I have not read elsewhere.

I liked your presentation but my prior comments still relevant I feel. I particularly liked the simple style of delivery.



All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

uq

  • Global Moderator
  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Posts: 411
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Perspective on Salah
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2021, 12:19:55 PM »
Salam bro,

I should make it clear that I use the Arabic language without further qualification. Your approach tends to derive new meanings based on the use of a word in the Quran. Although there is merit in this approach if a word happened to be unknown or unclear, but fortunately for us the Classical Arabic language has been preserved to a large extent in various writings.

I have never taken the approach you take as it is a slippery slope and can lead every reader to deriving their own meaning for each contested word. To prove this point, you translate Ṣalāh as "bond," Sam Gerrans translates it as "duty," another writer translates it as "teaching."

"Ṣalāh" to me is "prayer" in the strongest possible terms, it cannot be anything else. To our knowledge, that is how the 6th century Arabs used the word, and that is how I understand it.

I find no need to reinvent the language. The Quran claims to be an Arabic Quran, so I just take every word for what it means in the CA lexicons.

I read your article of Tasbīḥ and it's great! Well done!

You will find that I made the same conclusions about Tasbīḥ back in 2008. That is to say, Tasbīḥ forms a part of Ṣalāh when it is ordained at the times of Ṣalāh, and it forms a part of the general remembrance of God in all other times outside the times of Ṣalāh. However, we disagree on the meaning of Tasbīḥ, to me it is simply "glorification," whereas you derive a novel meaning which I find unnecessary.

One comment I have is that you suggest the following verses may be a form of hyperbole:

19:62 ...provision in heaven morning and evening
40:46 ...exposed to fire morning and evening
25:5 ...dictated to him morning and evening

I think they would have been hyperbole if the terms used were "laylan wa-naharan," however, the terms used in these 3 verses refer to specific times of the day as used by the Arabs of the 6th century.

I created a schematic of the various times of the day as defined in the CA lexicons, however, it's in Arabic: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkotlTY_voT402cGaDI3Da_op5Bt?e=qaqlOQ
uq

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11358
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Perspective on Salah
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2021, 02:56:10 PM »
peace bro,

Whilst I may share some of the misgivings of one aspect of my approach, my use of "new/novel meanings" is quite limited and I often choose meanings that can encompass others within it. In any case words are words but the most important factor is if our chosen word or understanding actually fits with The Quran, i.e. does it pass The Quran test. I think we would both agree on that.

"Ṣalāh" to me is "prayer" in the strongest possible terms, it cannot be anything else. To our knowledge, that is how the 6th century Arabs used the word, and that is how I understand it.

That is a very strong statement, in fact I dont think you could have worded it more firmly! :) So let's put it to The Quran test, with the first example, feel free to use your own translation:

29:45 Recite what is inspired to you of the book, and uphold the salat; surely the salat stops evil and bad things, and surely the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows what you do.

I'm sure many of us here, including yourself, encounter people who uphold the prayer (as you term it) but engage in evil and bad things, so how can God claim (with confidence) salat stops such things?


[Others verses we can discuss further]


Quote
However, we disagree on the meaning of Tasbīḥ, to me it is simply "glorification," whereas you derive a novel meaning which I find unnecessary.
I translated it as "glorification" so I'm not sure what you mean here.

Quote
I think they would have been hyperbole if the terms used were "laylan wa-naharan,"
That is an interesting point. Is that a known Arabic idiom? I'm not sure if it was hyperbole or not. Of course if we take it to mean actual times of the day then that will raise questions/issues, e.g. heaven, hell etc have mornings and evenings, provision is only twice per day etc
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5745
  • Karma +8/-4
Re: A Perspective on Salah
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2021, 05:07:39 AM »
I do not get this,quote:

"I'm sure many of us here, including yourself, encounter people who uphold the prayer (as you term it) but engage in evil and bad things, so how can God claim (with confidence) salat stops such things?".

How can one engage in evil and bad things if they are busy engaging in  "the Salat".. I take it to mean at least the time taken for "the salat" stops people engaging in evil.  Remembering GOD 24/7 can do it a little better as the more we have GOD in mind the less evil we commit.

However humans forget easily through anger, desires.ambition...etc.

If GOD continuously reminds us to repent daily, then surely nothing can stop us  for good. Otherwise all those who do "the Salat" will be angels at all times!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

uq

  • Global Moderator
  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Posts: 411
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Perspective on Salah
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2021, 10:56:00 AM »
Salam Wakas,

There are several seemingly anomalous uses of the word Ṣalāh and its plural Ṣalawāt in the Quran: 29:45, 9:5, 11:87, 9:99, and 22:40.

In these verses, translating "Prayer" to "Ṣalāh" appears to be incompatible with the context of each verse and so it leads some to think that the meaning of "Ṣalāh" cannot be "Prayer." But what of the other 40 instances in the Quran where "Ṣalāh" is used in which the translation "Prayer" fits perfectly? Do we use the 5 anomalous instances to override the 40 normative instances? Is this a wise approach? I think it is not.

If we look carefully at the 5 verses I have listed above, we find good explanations for each of them.

29:45 — Here, we are told that the Ṣalāh "prevents" or "wards off" evil and bad things. What does the Quran say about those who perform the Ṣalāh? They are reverent (2:238), they are God-fearing (2:3), they are humble (23:2), they are believers (2:3), they are righteous (7:170), they uphold their contracts (2:177), they are patient (2:177), they are truthful (2:177), and they are those whose hearts tremble when God is mentioned (8:2). When all these characteristics are united in a single individual, and he maintains these characteristics over many years, how likely is that individual going to engage in evil and bad things? Especially since God is an ally to the believers. Remember also that Ṣalāh is "burdensome" except for the humble (2:45).

9:5 — This verse is often used to protest against the normative understanding of Ṣalāh, the argument being "How can the mushrikeen perform Ṣalāh"? This is simply a rushed conclusion and an oversight of the crucial phrase "...if they repent..." Repentance is used in the Quran for both Muslims and non-Muslims as evidenced by verses such as 5:73-74, 9:125-126, 9:74, 11:1-3, 11:50-52, and many other verses which address non-Muslims who are told to repent. Therefore, the crucial phrase in 9:5 is "...if they repent..." which is their embracing of the truth and then subsequently establishing the Ṣalāh.

11:87 — The sentence "O Shu'ayb, does your Ṣalāh order you that we leave what our fathers worship?" is a quotation from the people of Shu'ayb, it is not God speaking. God is quoting what they said. Did they know what they were witnessing when they saw Shu'ayb perform Ṣalāh? How much knowledge did they have about the Ṣalāh? Did they even witness him perform Ṣalāh or did they simply hear rumours about his performing Ṣalāh? More importantly, are we going to use the quotation of unbelievers to guide our understanding of Ṣalāh, when God has already laid out every single detail about Ṣalāh in other verses? This is an important point.

9:99 — The CA dictionaries list "seeking forgiveness and supplication" as one of the many meanings of "Ṣalāh." I take this to be the intended meaning here.

22:40 —  The CA dictionaries also list “Ṣalawāt” as meaning “Synagogues” this makes perfect sense in the context of the verse.

In view of this, I find no need to stray from the normative meaning of "Prayer."
uq

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11358
  • Karma +14/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Perspective on Salah
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2021, 02:47:16 AM »
peace uq,

Re: 29:45
You said "how likely is that individual going to engage in evil and bad things?"
Whilst I agree your analysis suggests it is very unlikely, but as you know the Arabic is firm (dare I say unequivocal) on this that salat stops/prevents. To me that seems an unusual statement.
As you can see from GL's response he takes at another way as he recognises it would be near impossible for it to mean times outwith salat.

As a side note, I do not translate "tanha" as "stop/prevents/wards off" as I go with its most common meaning in Quran and that is "forbids". Of course if one translates it as "forbids" this results in some very interesting consequences.


Re: 9:5
As you may know I wrote an article on this issue. For your explanation to work it involves a conversion/reversion or as you put it "their embracing of the truth". No matter which way you slice it, that would have to be considered an exception, not only to the usage of "taba" but also in terms of no compulsion in deen [2:256]. I find that problematic but others may not.


Re: 11:87
Exactly, you have to interpret/assume the statement they made is somehow incorrect. Note how in 11:88 Shu'ayb does not respond in a way that suggests they were mistaken about salat, and by coincidence anha/forbid pops up in use again.


Re: 9:99
Yes, this is an interesting one. Not sure how much we can conclude on this usage.


Re: 22:40
This is an interesting usage. I haven't concluded on this one yet. But yes if we go by CA then what you said is definitely possible.


It is good that you have pondered over some "anomalous instances" but I don't think your admission of 5 "anomalous instances" warrants the certainty of your previous statement which may give the impression it is impossible for it to mean anything other than "prayer". What if there are more than 5 "anomalous instances"?
We must be careful not to fall afoul of a false dichotomy / either/or logical fallacy, i.e. the only option is it means A or B, i.e. prayer or else. What if the truth lies somewhere in between?

Let's take a closer look at the verse that is commonly cited to support salat means prayer and that is 4:102.

"And if you are among them so uphold the salat to/for them..."
What does "to/for them" mean and imply?

"...then when they have SJD then let them..."
Why do only "they" SJD?

Reference:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org