Author Topic: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation  (Read 4103 times)

Iyyaka

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2020, 05:02:32 AM »
Peace…
I won’t ask each and every word.. don’t worry dude..  but you have to study each and every word according to what you accepted (formula)…. Isn’t it? No need to be embarrassed … we all are learning and students of quran...when we call us students.. needless to say further.. Btw thank you for your reply… So you take makka as Proper noun while it has other derived meaning…okay…What made you to give priority to take makka as proper noun based on your formula? Why it should be proper noun according to formula? Once you have taken a word as proper noun in quran it can only be a proper noun for that place…. I don’t want to distort your topic, but hope at least relevant what I am asking…

Do you think those who didn't take the word makka as proper noun and still follow your formula went astray or went something seriously wrong for them?
Peace to you,

Did you look at what i said about the textual context in my last post?
Otherwise, Mazhar anwers you very well. I quote him :
"
The Ayah you referred wherein the word  occurs only once in the Frame 5 of Chapter named  meaning "The Victory".

Frame has Ayah 24 to 27. After overpowering an army in the battlefield the triumphant army captures the main/capital city to establish its reign. There is always possibility of resistance and hand to hand fight in the midst of city. The text itself shows that it is the name of City. Her other particular feature is also mentioned.
"
=> the textual context is enough clear. After, beyond his own proper noun, you can say that this name comes from "destruction" and that it has a connection with reality that is why they call their city "makkah" (a place which knew many destructions). In my region for example I know a city whose name is the concatenation of two words: city + mist (strong characteristic). But this remains speculation from the quranic point of view because he never says that this city specifically experienced multiple destruction (or it was not clear to me...). Is this the implicit meaning of your question?

---------------

The formula is generic but i have some differences in its application with what proposes Mazhar. That's why we can differ about certain minor or major Quranic words or ideas .
For example, in 2-268:5 he translates the word "l-faḥshāi" as meaning: "he prompts you people to indulge in shameless sexual obsessive attitude." I don't find the same conclusion (i will give my reasoning applying my formula - if you are interested). Unless I am mistaken, I think that I reason more in terms of close correspondence between words and ideas than him, inside a frame as he calls it or between frames. The Quran is traversed within it by the principle of symmetry (para-synonymic or antynomic ..) and/or binarity.

jkhan

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2020, 09:15:29 AM »
Peace to you,

Did you look at what i said about the textual context in my last post?
Otherwise, Mazhar anwers you very well. I quote him :
"
The Ayah you referred wherein the word  occurs only once in the Frame 5 of Chapter named  meaning "The Victory".

Frame has Ayah 24 to 27. After overpowering an army in the battlefield the triumphant army captures the main/capital city to establish its reign. There is always possibility of resistance and hand to hand fight in the midst of city. The text itself shows that it is the name of City. Her other particular feature is also mentioned.
"
=> the textual context is enough clear. After, beyond his own proper noun, you can say that this name comes from "destruction" and that it has a connection with reality that is why they call their city "makkah" (a place which knew many destructions). In my region for example I know a city whose name is the concatenation of two words: city + mist (strong characteristic). But this remains speculation from the quranic point of view because he never says that this city specifically experienced multiple destruction (or it was not clear to me...). Is this the implicit meaning of your question?

---------------

The formula is generic but i have some differences in its application with what proposes Mazhar. That's why we can differ about certain minor or major Quranic words or ideas .
For example, in 2-268:5 he translates the word "l-faḥshāi" as meaning: "he prompts you people to indulge in shameless sexual obsessive attitude." I don't find the same conclusion (i will give my reasoning applying my formula - if you are interested). Unless I am mistaken, I think that I reason more in terms of close correspondence between words and ideas than him, inside a frame as he calls it or between frames. The Quran is traversed within it by the principle of symmetry (para-synonymic or antynomic ..) and/or binarity.

Peace both Iyykaka and Mazhr..
 
If you get true guidance with the way you study the Quran then what else you can ask...
But for me Makka is not proper noun.. I am happy with.. I don't want to divert your topic to one of the mightiest of   discussion/debate... God will we all know the exact truth.. Pls carry on your intended topic..thank you for of you for sharing thoughts.. ...

Iyyaka

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2020, 12:09:19 PM »
Peace jkhan,

May god guide us to a better understanding of his last Holy Scripture.

Please share your thoughts on what "makkah" means in a new post.

jkhan

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2020, 08:47:28 PM »
Peace jkhan,

May god guide us to a better understanding of his last Holy Scripture.

Please share your thoughts on what "makkah" means in a new post.

Peace Iyykaka...
Thank you for your request... But unfortunately I don't like to involve in which not much to say... I am sure Makka / Becca topics would have been debated in this forum... You will get some idea..
All I have to say within my  knowledge and guidance that Makka is not a place.. Becca most probably a place... Why it is not important for me these locations in connection with my salvation is coz it has nothing to do for my after life... But for research it has much value...
For example if I don't know where the location of Masjid AL haram after thorough study of quran then why should I resort to a location hypothetically or follow the majority since everyone go to a place so shoukd i.. I don't prefer guess work to my belief... I will only do what is clear to me from quran... If Makka is a proper noun for you then you probably may be knowing where the  location is or may be not... Not at all significant for me where Makka is and what is the benefit of it...

But for your info... The current day Makka cannot be the mother of towns for sure.. To prove that you need to hide many a glaring proof from quran at the expense of so called  holy city in Makka KSA.. Not a single evidence within quran... Only evidence you may grab is this 48:24 if taken as pronoun... But it won't give any support but for the sake of love people may attach to this verse and claim Makka is mentioned in quran..
I am not so blind... God save me...
As per quran definitly there were rituals took place from Ibrahim to Mohamed at certain one place... But once the demise abd end of prophets such place has no value.  If you notice the fundamental reason to converge to that place...

 

Mazhar

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2020, 09:11:53 PM »
Peace Iyykaka...
Thank you for your request... But unfortunately I don't like to involve in which not much to say... I am sure Makka / Becca topics would have been debated in this forum... You will get some idea..
All I have to say within my  knowledge and guidance that Makka is not a place.. Becca most probably a place... Why it is not important for me these locations in connection with my salvation is coz it has nothing to do for my after life... But for research it has much value...
For example if I don't know where the location of Masjid AL haram after thorough study of quran then why should I resort to a location hypothetically or follow the majority since everyone go to a place so shoukd i.. I don't prefer guess work to my belief... I will only do what is clear to me from quran... If Makka is a proper noun for you then you probably may be knowing where the  location is or may be not... Not at all significant for me where Makka is and what is the benefit of it...

But for your info... The current day Makka cannot be the mother of towns for sure.. To prove that you need to hide many a glaring proof from quran at the expense of so called  holy city in Makka KSA.. Not a single evidence within quran... Only evidence you may grab is this 48:24 if taken as pronoun... But it won't give any support but for the sake of love people may attach to this verse and claim Makka is mentioned in quran..
I am not so blind... God save me...
As per quran definitly there were rituals took place from Ibrahim to Mohamed at certain one place... But once the demise abd end of prophets such place has no value.  If you notice the fundamental reason to converge to that place...

How to obey it?

Pointers of explicit nature are embedded within it (the House) which is exclusive peculiarity of it.

مَّقَامُ إِبْرَٟهِيـمَۖ

The standing place of Iebra'heim [alai'his'slaam, Al-Masjidilha'raam] is therein.

وَمَن دَخَلَهُۥ كَانَ ءَامِنٙاۗ

And whoever had entered therein he was in a state of amnesty and security.

وَلِلَّهِ عَلَـى ٱلنَّاسِ حِجُّ ٱلْبَيْتِ مَنِ ٱسْتَطَاعَ إِلَيْهِ سَبِيلٙاۚ

Beware, the Huj - pilgrimage of the House is an obligation imposed upon such people who have the capacity and wherewithal to travel towards it (the House) for the awe and reverence for  Allah the Exalted.

وَمَن كَفَـرَ

And if someone disavowed to discharge this obligation  [he caused his own loss] —

jkhan

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2020, 09:41:14 PM »
Dear Big brother Mazhar...

Peace..
I am of the opinion you are someone in my presumption that you are going to current day Makka and perform haj in whatever way you do... Hope my guess is right... No issue for me.. But in case if you want advice based on quran that anyone else should go there,  what is your proof that Makka is the place and current day masjid AL haram is the spot and we should as believers go there?  How do you confirm that? 

 I have no clue if I go to current Makka (of course I have been there more than dozen times) what is Safa what is Marwa ehat baith al atheeq etc.. For me No haj without the presence of a prophet....

Iyyaka

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2020, 11:41:08 PM »
Peace jkhan,

Thanks for sharing your opinion about Makkah.

Just a rectification : please don't attribute to me the fact that actual Makkah is the Makkah of the Quran.
It is the feeling (i may be wrong) i have by reading your last post directed towards me. If, by the textual context, i admit that the place at the time of the prophet and for the quraich tribe a city/territory was called mekkah, that does not necessarily mean that this quranic place corresponds to the current place we known today.
The truth is above all even if it is difficult to accept it or it destroy my strong beliefs.

But, if Allah wills, I would discuss this after having exposed the structure of sura 2 on my site (i hope in english too).

jkhan

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2020, 12:02:45 AM »
Peace jkhan,

Thanks for sharing your opinion about Makkah.

Just a rectification : please don't attribute to me the fact that actual Makkah is the Makkah of the Quran.
It is the feeling (i may be wrong) i have by reading your last post directed towards me. If, by the textual context, i admit that the place at the time of the prophet and for the quraich tribe a city/territory was called mekkah, that does not necessarily mean that this quranic place corresponds to the current place we known today.
The truth is above all even if it is difficult to accept it or it destroy my strong beliefs.

But, if Allah wills, I would discuss this after having exposed the structure of sura 2 on my site (i hope in english too).

I have not attributed to you.. If u read my thread you would get it.. But proper noun means that you have to approach for something to suit the verse... If you are not sure where the this proper noun is located then haj is at from reality to you if you still want to do haj if you think it is a thing to be done... That's what I said to Mazhr.. Confirm me the location within quran...

Mazhar

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2020, 01:20:04 AM »
Dear Big brother Mazhar...

Peace..
I am of the opinion you are someone in my presumption that you are going to current day Makka and perform haj in whatever way you do... Hope my guess is right... No issue for me.. But in case if you want advice based on quran that anyone else should go there,  what is your proof that Makka is the place and current day masjid AL haram is the spot and we should as believers go there?  How do you confirm that? 

 I have no clue if I go to current Makka (of course I have been there more than dozen times) what is Safa what is Marwa ehat baith al atheeq etc.. For me No haj without the presence of a prophet....
Then what should we understand from many of the verses without his presence?

jkhan

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Re: The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2020, 04:19:17 AM »
Then what should we understand from many of the verses without his presence?

Peace...
You shouldn't have posed this question to me.. Coz we know we don't have any prophets as messenger to bring the messages of God after last prophet... ... For that we have complete verses from God to refer... For the yester community without prophets messengers they are not complete.. Coz they will have to depend on their own otherwise.. With prophets living among them or during their era they always had the opportunity to ask questions and even debate on days like haj... Messages wide spread and things were clarified to vast number of people by converging to the predestined place from the time of Ibrahim which was same.. And they return with the message and spread... No-one would have had the book of quran until it was completed.. So during entire life of Mohamed people were listening to him to get their message... Among them the good ones.. "we hear we obey"
Before Mohamed Israelites had their respective books.. And of course prophets and Messengers...  Similarly it would have been all around in major cities of the world ... Though we have no clue,  God promises that He sent Messengers to all Umma.. There is meaning when God calls FIRST HOUSE BUILT FOR MANKIND... so.. Distant communities would have their house similar to what Ibrahim built to gather and deliver messages.. Suppose if people lived in Mexico after Ibrahim then God would have definitely located a house to converge to deliver messages for respective messengers... But God definitly prefered Israelites and surrounded.. Otherwise He doesn't need to build His first house somewhere around where Ibrahim lived.. As per quran Ibrahim lived not far from where Lut lived..

Now we don't have Prophets bringing messages to be delivered... Suppose if one of those  prophets  lives now his duty will be to deliver the message.. So probably he would have opted the same spot or any other where most of other prophets from Ibrahim to Mohamed converged during four months period on given days to spread message with debate... That would reach whole world.. But it's not God's plan.. God severed His messages through prophets with intent leaving His final book preserved word by word.. ..

Yes we have  many areas which we have to study without any prophets presence... We are totally different community.. Aren't we?   Can we be equal to a community that lived with the presence (visible / not visible) of a prophet messenger that also while delivering messages?.. For Me.. No..
Yes Mazhr.. We have to understand many a things on our own using what they left ... But how to practice even before understand the message.. So.. We learn and dedicate time... But they were privileged to get message live on the spot or yearly during haj.. So they converged on purpose .. Why we need to get together to a place which has no verification and what for? Are we short of messages?  To listen to whome? Are we receiving messages there?  Who is there in Makka for you to listen to?
God says in quran 22:27 "And proclaim to the people the Hajj, they will come to YOU (singular).. "
So according to verses it shows that Haj was started with Ibrahim by designating a house to deliver messages and  not to equal anything with God.. and God says people will come to Him(Ibrahim)... Same when it continued with other prophets.. People will come towards prophets.. Everyone was not living with respective prophets but far.. So whoever God wanted to reach the message will gather there.. So it will be the duty of prophets to deliver the message yearly whatever came to them apart from what they delivered to their own people living with them instantly ..

God said people will come to Ibrahim so do to other prophets to a place assigned for their own benefit... So without prophets no  haj for them... But for us we can always debate coz we have the complete book... We don't need research years and years and figure out hypothetically a place and go there and do rituals... No way... For them everything was well known... Just God making more clear.. That's why God never included that successful believers are those who performed Haj.... We are doing haj.. As long as we learn and debate in right way... But it is not must we should do so.. But for prophets it was must.. Their duty is to deliver and to deliver people should converge and be served and keep the place clean and tidy and keeo certain rules etc etc. The core of haj is debate and spreading message...

Your question is "Then what should we understand from many of the verses without his presence"...

No need his(prophet) presence as God decided no need.. As God decided to preserve the book and stands as the guide then look for it...
For example if you understood salat is 5 times a day and while your fellow brother Waqas understood 2 times then both of you would do what you understood... Same way .. If Makka is for you the place to do haj then do it.. But for me it is not... So.. did any prophet came to intervene in what we do? After all your our decision...  But who is guided,  God will know.. But yester community with prophets they knew what to do... We are not far from them.. If we choose the right option then we also same like living with prophets.. That right option can only come from God to us...