Author Topic: Is this life a purgatory  (Read 2312 times)

Sarah

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Is this life a purgatory
« on: February 13, 2020, 06:56:56 AM »
Peace

For believers?

Does anyone here know of Jordan Peterson and how he views life as suffering? Do you agree with his perspective?
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good logic

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2020, 09:11:39 AM »
Peace Sarah.
 For believers? Life is most certainly not a purgatory ,why?
Because GOD s promise is this life is "Tayibatan"- for believers ...Fala Nuhyiyannahu Hayatan Tayibatan...- GOD is saying believers, male and female, will live a very good life in this one and a better one in the next.

Away from GOD, this life can be good or bad depending on what your luck has for you. So sure, for some it is like a purgatory, for others it is like paradise.,for many it is a mixture of the two.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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BelieverAni

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2020, 10:31:20 AM »
Peace be upon you.

I seek refuge in God from Satan the rejected.

Say, "Nothing happens to us except what God has decreed for us. He is our Protector. Let the believers put their trust in God." Quran 9:51
"Guide us to the straight path" Quran 1:6

BelieverAni

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2020, 11:23:26 AM »
Shifts (of angels) take turns, staying with each one of you—they are in front of you and behind you. They stay with you, and guard you in accordance with God’s commands. Thus, GOD DOES NOT CHANGE THE CONDITION OF ANY PEOPLE UNLESS THEY CHANGE WHAT IS IN THEMSELVES. If God wills any hardship for any people, no force can stop it. For they have none beside Him any Protector Quran 13:11

Peace.
"Guide us to the straight path" Quran 1:6

Cerberus

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2020, 01:40:35 PM »
I guess it's a decent enough view on life provided one understands why and how it is that.

As for "believers", I don't know about those special people. I don't think self-proclaimed believers get a special treatment in life or have access to better understanding of life and their very own selves just by proclaiming themselves believers.

As for Jordan Peterson, I think he's a good man, a decent voice of reason for this day and age. And I personally believe that he who follows reason is not far from the path of God 

Jafar

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2020, 11:50:56 PM »
Peace

For believers?

Does anyone here know of Jordan Peterson and how he views life as suffering? Do you agree with his perspective?

Life is not a purgatory, life is a blessing an opportunity to experience and recognize many things.

Some of those experience might not be pleasant, yet by recognizing unpleasantry we will recognize pleasantry, it's opposite.

As when life ends, what remains is the memory of those experiences, which should teaches us some lessons..

 

good logic

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2020, 12:47:44 AM »
Brother Cerberus.

Self proclaimed anything in this life is mot recommended. Whether one self claims they are believers" or self claims they"understand this life and how it is" or self claims any "expertise" to show off. And surely no one should proclaim they are special
One can only try their best at respecting the right of all diverse beings.

The point is ,if one believes in GOD ,then one needs to also believe GOD. i.e GOD s promise is always true.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Cerberus

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2020, 12:38:58 PM »
The reason why I criticized it is because it is a recurrent theme of some sort of holy entitlement. Should believers do this ? should believers do that ?

What exactly is good for believers that is not good for mankind ? and what should believers do that doesn't concern mankind ?

Sarah

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2020, 03:12:42 PM »
Peace

I don't see anything wrong with calling oneself 'believer'. It's not arrogant, it's confident and introspective. It's just like calling oneself muslim, vegan, christian or a liberal. Is it arrogant to call oneself vegan? Also, it *can* be arrogant if the INTENTION is to show off and feel superior. But if it's done with confidence and just happiness to be a believer then there's nothing wrong with that. Saying it's arrogant is making an assumption about that person's intentions which is not factual but just an assumption. It's also quite judgmental.

Plenty of arrogant people also act humbly outwardly. Is that better than a bit of confidence?

The reason I asked 'for believers' specifically is because in the Qur'an it says this about their lives:

'Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?'
29:2

'But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars.' 29.3

And says this about I'm guessing rejectors:

'So when they forgot that by which they had been reminded, We opened to them the doors of every [good] thing until, when they rejoiced in that which they were given, We seized them suddenly, and they were [then] in despair.' 6:44
 
The above verse reminds me of all the people who seem so far away from God yet seem to have it all. That's why I thought, maybe God makes believers tests harder to get rid of their sins so that they won't have to pay for them in the next life? Also, I think (but I am not sure) that the 'we seized them' phrase is referring to them dying? They could be in despair at the very last moments in life...

But on the other hand, the verse Good Logic mentions seems to paint a picture of a 'good' life for believers:

'Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer - We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.' 16:97

What exactly does a good life mean? A life filled with good deeds therefore making it 'good' or righteous or a life that is happy and mostly free of depression? This is now my question which I have been wondering about for a LONG time...:-\  :hmm

If anyone knows the root word/s of the Arabic for the phrase 'good life' in the mentioned verse, please do share.

peace  :peace:






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jkhan

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2020, 06:41:36 PM »
Peace

I don't see anything wrong with calling oneself 'believer'. It's not arrogant, it's confident and introspective. It's just like calling oneself muslim, vegan, christian or a liberal. Is it arrogant to call oneself vegan? Also, it *can* be arrogant if the INTENTION is to show off and feel superior. But if it's done with confidence and just happiness to be a believer then there's nothing wrong with that. Saying it's arrogant is making an assumption about that person's intentions which is not factual but just an assumption. It's also quite judgmental.

Plenty of arrogant people also act humbly outwardly. Is that better than a bit of confidence?

The reason I asked 'for believers' specifically is because in the Qur'an it says this about their lives:

'Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?'
29:2

'But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars.' 29.3

And says this about I'm guessing rejectors:

'So when they forgot that by which they had been reminded, We opened to them the doors of every [good] thing until, when they rejoiced in that which they were given, We seized them suddenly, and they were [then] in despair.' 6:44
 
The above verse reminds me of all the people who seem so far away from God yet seem to have it all. That's why I thought, maybe God makes believers tests harder to get rid of their sins so that they won't have to pay for them in the next life? Also, I think (but I am not sure) that the 'we seized them' phrase is referring to them dying? They could be in despair at the very last moments in life...

But on the other hand, the verse Good Logic mentions seems to paint a picture of a 'good' life for believers:

'Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer - We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.' 16:97

What exactly does a good life mean? A life filled with good deeds therefore making it 'good' or righteous or a life that is happy and mostly free of depression? This is now my question which I have been wondering about for a LONG time...:-\  :hmm

If anyone knows the root word/s of the Arabic for the phrase 'good life' in the mentioned verse, please do share.

peace  :peace:

Dear Sister Sara...

First of all what is your understanding of Purgatory? Did Allah ever mention that current life we experiance is bla bla.. Lol..
Note the verses what God said to Adam and the rest when they were about to send to Earth..  They were on a beautiful place but their action disconnected them from that and put them in a lesser place...  But guidance always came from God... If you take the literal dictionary meaning for purgatory then I am afraid that won't make sense... God didn't confine us in prison ... We are free and doing what we want...

Regarding GOOD LIFE...
in my perception God never promised good life in this world for all believers... 16:97 never sounds like that... God promises to give REWARD for the righteous ... In this verse,  current life is just a guess work.. No current life is mentioned in the verse.. God always promises with REWARD for the life after death... Good life is always trouble free and having all that what we want... That can only be the life after death for who enter janna...
But life on this earth for everyone based on their situation is ups and downs... Even the one who lives the best of life with luxury is not equal to the life hereafter...
God will not reward what He is to reward after life... That's not what God meant when He sent us here on Earth ...
When God says in 6:32  that life of this world is play and amusement then we have to deeply ponder that we can't have GOOD LIFE here.. A life which has death destined can never be a good life. Don't be deceived by this life.. A body which ages can never be a good life.. GOOD LIFE is always in the Janna..
Neither believrs nor disbelievers will ever get good life here on this earth.. It's our weakness in judging with what the rich people possess..

Allah may enrich some and may deprive some regardless of their faith.. It doesn't mean Good life... Don't judge this world a life as good life.. It is never.. God may bless in this world with what most don't possess.. That's different..
But life after is full of REWARDS.. there you get good life...

Take the story of Qarun...he was rich.. People thought that it was a good life.. It's temporary enjoyment..

So finally for me this world's life is not purgotary...
This workds life is not good life and God is fair to believers and disbelievers in giving His wealth...
But nothing is equal to REWARD from God... That's only in Janna..

I would like to add one more thing to this.. Verse 2:212 " Beautified for those who disbelieve is the life of this world, and they ridicule those who believe. But those who fear Allah are above them on the Day of Resurrection. And Allah gives provision to whom He wills without account."

If something is beautified then it looks good.. Disbelievers only should get attracted to this world life calling it Good life.. But not believers.. Believers life starts hereafter.. God didn't say that beautified for those who believe the life of this world... That makes the difference..

Don't complicate what I said all above with verse 10:64..

good logic

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2020, 01:32:47 AM »
Peace Sarah, All.

GOD speaks from true and perfect knowledge, we speak according to our understanding of GOD s knowledge. That is why Qoran needs to grow on us and we need to grow our soul and our knowledge to climb the ladder ,ongoing....

First if one agrees that there are true souls "believers in this life" and there are are all sorts of other mixtures of souls that include those who do not believe, those who pretend ,to believe, those who do not care either way, ....Many different kinds of convictions/ types  of people

 The attitude of these different types of people about "good" and "bad" are also different . From this basis , we can look at what Qoran is saying. Let us look at some verses below:

[Qoran 24:55] God promises those among you who believe and lead a righteous life, that He will make them sovereigns on earth, as He did for those before them, and will establish for them the religion He has chosen for them, and will substitute peace and security for them in place of fear. All this because they Ubudu Me alone; they never set up any idols beside Me. Those who disbelieve after this are the truly wicked.
[Qoran 30:44] Whoever disbelieves, disbelieves to the detriment of his own soul, while those who lead a righteous life, do so to strengthen and develop their own souls.
[Qoran 4:26] God wills to explain things for you, and to guide you through past precedents, and to redeem you. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.
[Qoran 4:27] God wishes to redeem you, while those who pursue their lusts wish that you deviate a great deviation.
[Qoran 4:28] God wishes to lighten your burden, for the human being is created weak.
[Qoran 51:55] And remind, for the reminder benefits the believers.
[Qoran 51:56] I did not create the jinns and the humans except to Ubudu Me alone.
[Qoran 90:4] We created the human being to work hard (to redeem himself).
[Qoran 10:25] God invites to the abode of peace, and guides whomever He wills in a straight path.

[Qoran 6:82] Those who believe, and do not pollute their belief with idol worship, have deserved the perfect security, and they are truly guided.
[Qoran 13:29] Those who believe and lead a righteous life have deserved happiness and a joyous destiny.
[Qoran 10:62] Absolutely, God's allies have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
[Qoran 10:63] They are those who believe and lead a righteous life.
[Qoran 10:64] For them, joy and happiness in this world, as well as in the Hereafter. This is God's unchangeable law. Such is the greatest triumph.
[Qoran 16:30] As for the righteous, when they are asked, "What do you think of these revelations from your Lord," they say, "Good." For those who lead a righteous life, happiness(in this life), and the abode of the Hereafter is even better. What a blissful abode for the righteous.
[Qoran 39:17] As for those who discard the worship of all idols, and devote themselves totally to God alone, they have deserved happiness. Give good news to My servants.
[Qoran 39:18] They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom God has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
[Qoran 41:30] Those who proclaim: "Our Lord is God," then lead a righteous life, the angels descend upon them: "You shall have no fear, nor shall you grieve. Rejoice in the good news that Paradise has been reserved for you.
[Qoran 41:31] "We are your allies in this life, and in the Hereafter. You will have in it anything you wish for; you will have anything you want.
[Qoran 41:32] "(Such is your) ultimate abode, from a Forgiver, Most Merciful."
[Qoran 47:2] Those who believe and work righteousness, and believe in what was sent down to Muhammad - which is the truth from their Lord - He remits their sins, and blesses them with contentment.
[Qoran 61:11] Believe in God and His messenger and strive in the cause of God with your money and your lives. This is the best deal for you, if you only knew.
[Qoran 61:13] Additionally, you get something you truly love: support from God and guaranteed victory. Give good news to the believers.

All this tells us that "our attitude" to what is good needs to change, it is not about what is good for the body i.e material things and entertainment but what is good for the soul-growing our soul- here in this life, quote:

"The purpose of the human experience is for the Soul to blossom in human form here on earth, rather than finding Heaven on earth, we are asked to release Heaven by living on earth"  Mark Nepo-Philosopher and spiritual poet-

GOD s law dictates that happiness of the soul is the true happiness, key verse:
.
For them, joy and happiness in this world, as well as in the Hereafter. This is God's unchangeable law. Such is the greatest triumph.

All the good is from the soul s point of view not the body and materials of this world.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
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jkhan

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2020, 03:29:37 AM »

Peace Everyone...

All I have to say for this very topic is below two verses ...

11:15 "Whoever desires the life of this world and its adornments - We fully repay them for their deeds therein, and they therein will not be deprived."

Even believers who are on the verge of disbelief can sway and can end up disbelievers... Verse 11:15 perfectly matched for those who goes after materials and pleasure of this world above anything. In fact full time.. . They are the people who call "time is money"... Of course for them.. So they are after it at any cost.. God won't make their effort in vain either .. God would give the result for their hard work.. That's fair.. And they perish with that.. This verse manifestly speaking about them.. And they will end up in hell fire as per 11:16.. We as believers should not be like them.. We should live our life for hereafter like we dedicate before an exam day and night leaving many things.. ... Likewise Sacrificing the Dunya life and time for hereafter .. Or we better sell the life for hereafter.. So we can't always look for Luxuries and materials... For that you need to spend lots of time in achieving them and maintaining them.. Simple life always suits for believers.. So that he or she can concentrate in understanding the life and truth... So this life for believers rather than calling purgatory better call it test and development of patience and faith untill reaching goal post.. We shouldn't get dissapointed over what others have.. We will definitely have soon better and lasting, for that we got to wait... So this life is waiting period by suppressing many a desires.. But still live with happin and thanking .

14:27 "Allah keeps firm those who believe, with the firm word, in worldly life and in the Hereafter. And Allah sends astray the wrongdoers. And Allah does what He wills."

What about above verse.. We are human.. We tend to look for luxuries and equal or better than others.. For that we may have to be like those who disbelieve.. Achieve goals at any cost... Going away from ethic... Or if not ethic at least spending entire time with dedication in achieving it forgetting the remembrance of God at the expense of worldly life.. So we waste time for the betterment of this world life....we will never get satisfied with phases of betterment unless we divert our mind towards God.. So we wittingly or unwittingly occupied for this life.. That won't take us to our ultimate goal...
So once we keep faith in God,  then God give us an unbelievable strength to maintain it by not deviating to wrong path.. Coz we are living in the same world where all disbelievers do live.. Can become easy trap to get duped and fall in love with the form of this life style which attracts ..
God saves real believers with His word... As much as we give up, we near God daily... As much as we love life we go far from God... God's word in this world and hereafter is same.. He keeps them satisfied..

Cerberus

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2020, 10:54:08 AM »
Life is a place where people can learn to become what their creator wants them to become. Doesn't it say that we were created in the image of God ?

So if life is a forge,God is the blacksmith, and the one being worked is the person.

The wrong is one's eyes and lack of understanding. The thing we view as good, and others as bad...

Jafar

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2020, 06:50:06 PM »
The reason why I criticized it is because it is a recurrent theme of some sort of holy entitlement. Should believers do this ? should believers do that ?

What exactly is good for believers that is not good for mankind ? and what should believers do that doesn't concern mankind ?

What is good will be applicable to all mankind or everything actually including non-mankind.
Whatever label or name they call themselves with.

Some people (or some souls) loves to make a distinction, a separation, between us and them. Believers and Kuffars, Jews and Goyim, Christians and Pagans, Natives and Immigrants, Locals and Foreigners, Friends and Enemies, Human and Animals etc.. etc.. It shows the 'stages' of the learning... but as I observed; gradually all souls will evolve into an understanding that everything are us, as such them do not exist.

If anyone knows the root word/s of the Arabic for the phrase 'good life' in the mentioned verse, please do share.

From the word of "Thoyib"  which means Good, Happy, Pleasant, Peaceful to the soul.
True happiness doesn't came from things or events happening around you,  happiness come from within you.
There will be time when you will learn and realize about the above.

amin

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Re: Is this life a purgatory
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2020, 06:27:54 PM »
Yes in a way life looks purgatory as its not permanent,
that doesnt mean we live a penance life rejecting goodness to ward of the evils, and those who do these acts voluntary, its just will be rituals thats not for everyone.

Life here is a mix of good and bad, We are being moved by others and we move others, both happening at the same time,
so how much extreme we go to both ends   we find both good and bad facing us equally and we cant escape from the reality of our weaknesses,
we need to accept the diversity that balance this existence,

What Quran  says is,
aqimus Salata WaAtuz Zakata...
Establish salat(be thankfull to what we have gained) and do zakat(spend for the goodness), be it anything knowledge, wealth or whatever.