Author Topic: EASTER  (Read 507 times)

jkhan

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EASTER
« on: April 12, 2020, 08:59:26 PM »
I shared the verse 4:157 with Christian friends about the crucifixion of Jesus and the totally contradictory statement in Quran.... ...

But they of the opinion that Bible and very trustable history has documented that Jesus was crucified and risen back on Easter...

For us Quran tells the truth,  but would that make sense to religious Christians  ..
Isn't it a kind of statement against their belief and arouse the anger in them...

4:157 "And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain"

What is the meaning of what I highlighted and underlined? Is it a deception intentionally?

I took sahih translation and highlighted section may differ ...
Any comments on this verse and christian practice and belief...

Iyyaka

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Re: EASTER
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2020, 11:55:21 PM »
You can have a look at this article (in french but you can translate it in english by the button "translate") which is complete on this subject :
https://www.alajami.fr/index.php/2018/08/25/la-crucifixion-de-jesus-selon-le-coran-et-en-islam/#_ednref11
peace.

jkhan

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Re: EASTER
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2020, 01:12:13 AM »
You can have a look at this article (in french but you can translate it in english by the button "translate") which is complete on this subject :
https://www.alajami.fr/index.php/2018/08/25/la-crucifixion-de-jesus-selon-le-coran-et-en-islam/#_ednref11
peace.


Peace....

Meticulously researched article by applying various sensible insights  into it and really worth spending sometime in reading it...

Thank you for sharing...

But after all if not all, but majority of Christians fell into the trap of some people and it continued ages and continues unfortunately...
Why God let this happen anyway?

Is believing Messiah was crucified a kind rejection in God?  Where does such acceptance stands while accepting The God and not Trinity?

Iyyaka

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Re: EASTER
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2020, 03:16:58 AM »
You're welcome - i just hope that the automatic translation in english is good enough ! A real work, a real meditation.

Additional comment about your last question :
- It is the debate around the fundamental theological concept of Christianity which is Redemption. (Jesus Christ being the “Redeemer”).
According to this doctrine, this redemption is possible only by faith in Jesus Christ (Rom 3: 24-30). And this redemption is completed, by faith in the Death and Resurrection (“for me”) of Jesus Christ. As Saint Paul affirms "If Christ is not risen, our preaching is empty, also empty our faith", the resurrection of Jesus who was crucified, died, is the constitutive event of the Christian faith and the founding event of the Church.

- For the quran it is by following the general way traced by Jesus (general common way to all the messengers) which allows our salvation and not just the faith in a man, that he is called Muhammad or Jesus-christ.
The Great Quran opened the way to the universality of salvation, beyond specific religious practices.

peace.

good logic

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Re: EASTER
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2020, 04:28:14 AM »
Peace jkhan.
Jesus was crucified. Qoran clearly distinguishes between body and soul/ the body of this world and the soul that returns to GOD. The question that needs to be asked is:
Which Jesus was crucified and whcich Jesus was saved by GOD?
i.e the body was crucified ,but the soul was raised to GOD. Qoran is spot on, quote:

Jesus' Death
This has been the single most controversial subject in the world. The Quran's miraculous mathematical code has now provided the final answer to this topic:

Jesus' soul was raised, i.e., he was put to death prior to the arrest and crucifixion of his body. Thus, his persecutors arrested, tortured, and crucified an empty body - Jesus was already gone to the world of souls (3:55, 4:157).

[Quran 3:54] They plotted and schemed, but so did God, and God is the best schemer.
[Quran 3:55] Thus, God said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

[Quran 4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.

The Gospels state clearly that the arrested body of Jesus was oblivious to the events surrounding it:

The chief priests, meanwhile, brought many accusations against Jesus. Pilate interrogated him again: "Surely you have some answer? See how many accusations they are leveling against you." But greatly to Pilate's surprise, Jesus made no further response.
[ Mark 15:3-5 ]

Herod was extremely pleased to see Jesus. From the reports about him he had wanted for a long time to see him, and he was hoping to see him work some miracles. He questioned Jesus at considerable length, but Jesus made no response. The chief priests and scribes were at hand to accuse him vehemently. Herod and his guards then treated him with contempt and insult.
[ Luke 23:8-11 ]

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is the fleshly part.
[Apocalypse of Peter, VII, 3, 81] from THE NAG HAMMADI LIBRARY (Harper & Row, 1977, James M.Robinson, ed, Page 339).
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

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jkhan

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Re: EASTER
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2020, 05:03:05 AM »
Peace jkhan.
Jesus was crucified. Qoran clearly distinguishes between body and soul/ the body of this world and the soul that returns to GOD. The question that needs to be asked is:
Which Jesus was crucified and whcich Jesus was saved by GOD?
i.e the body was crucified ,but the soul was raised to GOD. Qoran is spot on, quote:

Jesus' Death
This has been the single most controversial subject in the world. The Quran's miraculous mathematical code has now provided the final answer to this topic:

Jesus' soul was raised, i.e., he was put to death prior to the arrest and crucifixion of his body. Thus, his persecutors arrested, tortured, and crucified an empty body - Jesus was already gone to the world of souls (3:55, 4:157).

[Quran 3:54] They plotted and schemed, but so did God, and God is the best schemer.
[Quran 3:55] Thus, God said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

[Quran 4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.

The Gospels state clearly that the arrested body of Jesus was oblivious to the events surrounding it:

The chief priests, meanwhile, brought many accusations against Jesus. Pilate interrogated him again: "Surely you have some answer? See how many accusations they are leveling against you." But greatly to Pilate's surprise, Jesus made no further response.
[ Mark 15:3-5 ]

Herod was extremely pleased to see Jesus. From the reports about him he had wanted for a long time to see him, and he was hoping to see him work some miracles. He questioned Jesus at considerable length, but Jesus made no response. The chief priests and scribes were at hand to accuse him vehemently. Herod and his guards then treated him with contempt and insult.
[ Luke 23:8-11 ]

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is the fleshly part.
[Apocalypse of Peter, VII, 3, 81] from THE NAG HAMMADI LIBRARY (Harper & Row, 1977, James M.Robinson, ed, Page 339).
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace GL...

So your understanding of the verse if I put in a nutshell is....  Some people chased Jesus and found him dead so they killed the already dead body and claimed we killed Jesus and the same body was entrusted to administrators and they tortured Jesus soulless body and crucified thinking he is not dead...

So...  Unwittingly those who claim we killed Jesus and those who witnessed Jesus body was crucified are literally not lying... But they were not aware the hidden truth... They say what they explicitly witnessed..

But why such a deception throughout the history...
Did God misled the Christian community like He misled Muslim with Hadith?
We know God guides whome He wills and misleads whome He wills.   

Even in the article it doesn't say Jesus was crucified..  Jesus died and God lifted His soul that's manifest with Quran... But how do you ensure that Jesus's body was crucified?

good logic

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Re: EASTER
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2020, 09:43:35 AM »
Peace jkhan.
you say ,quote:

"So your understanding of the verse if I put in a nutshell is....  Some people chased Jesus and found him dead so they killed the already dead body and claimed we killed Jesus and the same body was entrusted to administrators and they tortured Jesus soulless body and crucified thinking he is not dead...

So...  Unwittingly those who claim we killed Jesus and those who witnessed Jesus body was crucified are literally not lying... But they were not aware the hidden truth... They say what they explicitly witnessed.."

Well not exactly, those around could not tell the difference like this similar  modern day story in the USA, quote:

Mercifully, God has given our generation a living example of a person whose soul departed this world, but his body continued to live for 19 months. On November 25, 1984, doctors at the Humana Hospital of Louisville, Kentucky removed the diseased heart of Mr. William Schroeder and replaced it with a plastic and metal pump (THE NEW YORK TIMES, Monday, November 26, 1984).

On the 19th day after this historic operation - Thursday, December 13, 1984 - Mr. Schroeder, the soul, the real person, departed this world. Mr. Schroeder died. But his body continued to function with the artificial heart implanted in his body. The world was told that he "probably suffered a stroke" (THE NEW YORK TIMES, December 14, 1984).

Significantly, only one day before Mr. Schroeder's departure, he talked with President Ronald Reagan on national TV, and demanded that the Social Security Administration send his overdue check. He was perfectly alert. From the moment "he suffered a stroke," he did not recognize the day or time, nor his family members. In fact, Mr.Schroeder was no longer in this world.

While I can only check and confirm if such  a person existed and the story is true, I cannot check or confirm that his soul departed before hand. It seems weird but with GOD wierd things can happen.
The case of Jesus seems to take the same trend, strong and able to communicate before the arrest and crucifiction yet unable to say anything afterwards?
Draw your own conclusion and check brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

jkhan

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Re: EASTER
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2020, 06:59:45 PM »
Peace jkhan.
you say ,quote:

"So your understanding of the verse if I put in a nutshell is....  Some people chased Jesus and found him dead so they killed the already dead body and claimed we killed Jesus and the same body was entrusted to administrators and they tortured Jesus soulless body and crucified thinking he is not dead...

So...  Unwittingly those who claim we killed Jesus and those who witnessed Jesus body was crucified are literally not lying... But they were not aware the hidden truth... They say what they explicitly witnessed.."

Well not exactly, those around could not tell the difference like this similar  modern day story in the USA, quote:

Mercifully, God has given our generation a living example of a person whose soul departed this world, but his body continued to live for 19 months. On November 25, 1984, doctors at the Humana Hospital of Louisville, Kentucky removed the diseased heart of Mr. William Schroeder and replaced it with a plastic and metal pump (THE NEW YORK TIMES, Monday, November 26, 1984).

On the 19th day after this historic operation - Thursday, December 13, 1984 - Mr. Schroeder, the soul, the real person, departed this world. Mr. Schroeder died. But his body continued to function with the artificial heart implanted in his body. The world was told that he "probably suffered a stroke" (THE NEW YORK TIMES, December 14, 1984).

Significantly, only one day before Mr. Schroeder's departure, he talked with President Ronald Reagan on national TV, and demanded that the Social Security Administration send his overdue check. He was perfectly alert. From the moment "he suffered a stroke," he did not recognize the day or time, nor his family members. In fact, Mr.Schroeder was no longer in this world.

While I can only check and confirm if such  a person existed and the story is true, I cannot check or confirm that his soul departed before hand. It seems weird but with GOD wierd things can happen.
The case of Jesus seems to take the same trend, strong and able to communicate before the arrest and crucifiction yet unable to say anything afterwards?
Draw your own conclusion and check brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Peace...
Well that's your up to date understanding...  I have read what you wrote in RK's article.. Hope it is a true incident, but do you think that's sufficient to say that Jesus's body was crucified...

But quran claim that the day Jesus die is peaceful...  Of course it could have been Peaceful when God made him die and took his soul and not at the hands of aggressive people...

Body and soul is complete life otherwise needless to call death while soul lives ever... So is it in fact peaceful at least in the sights of people who followed him and loved him?

Do you think there is any evidence to come to unwavering conclusion that Isa(body) was crucified...

In case as you say and many who have your line of thought say that Jesus's body was crucified then what harm in calling Jesus was crucified and keeping the Cross as the symbol.  Coz that's what they saw...
But at the same time God says Isa was not killed neither crucified... Remember God used Isa son of Maryam and He... So complete person(body +soul) was not crucified...

But God is not manifest in this case in the subject of "what happened to Jesus"... Is He? That in a way compelled or rather convinced people who came afterwards to believe what is documented untill quran was revealed... But if QURAN also says Jesus's body was crucified then I don't see anything wrong in the celebrations of Easter or for that matter remembering Good Friday .. Coz that's the body Jesus lived...
Jesus says in Quran I don't know anything from the day I died...  He claims He died and not crucified .. That's true... And also Jesus will never come back if you ponder on the below verse...
5:117 " I (Isa) said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness"
For better understanding read 5:116 as well

So if Jesus never come back then there is no point in believing that Jesus's body + soul lifted towards God...

If you compare verse 12:101 and 6:61 you will definitely find that word used tawaffaytanī is not kind of lifting a person up but making one die...

good logic

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Re: EASTER
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2020, 11:43:25 PM »
Peace jkhan.
 All it remains for me to say is that GOD would not take our physical body to a different dimension.
The story and explanation of Jesus death makes sense to me. All the other stories about Jesus have "hear say" about them and contradictions.
Qoran has many stories and miracles that we cannot possibly understand . If we believe in Qoran ,then we have to take GOD s word for things we cannot comprehend.
I know some people try their best to make their own"stories and assumptions" . Qoran has been streched and over interpreted by many, some with their own logic, but like GOD says" In Hum Illa Yakhrusoon" they only guess!!
So we take or leave whatever we choose from a lot of choices.
The main thing for me is Qoran has no contradiction.. The main question that keeps arising for me is this:
Why would GOD need to send messengers if we can work out His words for ourselves after they are with us?
Remembering that GOD has sent scriptures before Qoran and kept sending messengers and Qoran confirms this will carry on.
Which leads to this:
When will GOD send the last messenger?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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seekingtruth1111

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Re: EASTER
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2020, 05:40:09 AM »
Peace

Has anyone read the book Who Was Jesus?: A Conspiracy in Jerusalem by Kamal Salibi?

There is another possibility.

As per the book Jesus (Yeshua in hebrew) is not the same person mentioned in Quran as Isa (Esau in Hebrew).

Quranic Isa was probably in arabia and  precedes Jesus in palestine.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599509.0