Author Topic: Intercession confusion  (Read 711 times)

Amra94

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 339
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Intercession confusion
« on: February 01, 2020, 10:56:26 AM »
Most verses say that there will be no intercession or no intercession unless God gives permission. It sounds like no one can intercede for you but I am confused about 19:87 which kind of sounds like some people will be abe able to intercede 19:87 None will have [power of] intercession except he who had taken from the Most Merciful a covenant.

What is your understanding?

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5244
  • Karma +4/-0
Re: Intercession confusion
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2020, 02:11:17 PM »
Peace Amra.
This is my view about: لا يَملِكونَ الشَّفٰعَةَ إِلّا مَنِ اتَّخَذَ عِندَ الرَّحمٰنِ عَهدًا

 GOD is talking about the Mujremeen saying:None of them has any other power to intercede for them,except those who conformed with the laws of the most gracious(And they will not be among them anyway)
 Just means there is no intercession for them.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
  • Karma +111/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Intercession confusion
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2020, 01:48:59 AM »
Most verses say that there will be no intercession or no intercession unless God gives permission. It sounds like no one can intercede for you but I am confused about 19:87 which kind of sounds like some people will be abe able to intercede 19:87 None will have [power of] intercession except he who had taken from the Most Merciful a covenant.

What is your understanding?

What is this "Intercession"?

If I understand this "intercession" / "Safa'at" based on the understanding of Islam, the religion which I was born into;

1. Due to Allah is soooo far away, unreachable, to some if not most of humanity, then a kind of mediator in between is needed. Such act of mediation to Allah is what is understood as the act of "intercession". The role of mediator is widely believed can be performed by dead holy people, such as Muhammad or dead Imams, as they're now dead and situated closer to Allah than the rest of humanity. Living human can 'send' something to Muhammad or dead Imams with a note / remarks of "Please forward this to Allah"...
They invented a legend of how Muhammad has indeed 'intercede' on behalf of humanity to Allah when he was bargaining the number of rakaat to be performed during salat during his travel to heaven by riding a winged horse.

2. Another scenario is when Allah is angry at some of His own creation. Because He's angry He doesn't want to talk to His own creation and preparing a dire punishment for them. An intercessor in this case is needed to 'appease' Allah on their behalf, as Allah still listened to the intercessor, and plead Allah to cancel out the dire punishment prepared for them.

IMHO the entire concept of 'intercession' is ridiculous..,..  :rotfl:

God is all knowing all understanding all loving and located here there everywhere.
As such intercession to something which is very near and located here is not needed.
The intercessor (Dead People, Muhammad, Jesus, Imams, Clerics or any other being) is far away compared to God.
Furthermore since God is all knowing, loving and understanding He already know about the message to be 'intercessed' / 'delivered by the intercessor' even before the message was being thought of.

This concept of 'intercession' was yet another legacy from "Paganistic / Polytheistic Tradition".

Within Pagans Thought Structure, their deities/gods are being located in a specific place / realm which is far away / out of reach from common folks. In order to reach / communicate to their deities, one need to reach out to the deity's priest which are already an expert in terms of the exact rituals and techniques required to communicate to the deities.

The priest will then act as an 'intercessor' conveying the message from the common folks to be delivered to the deities. The deities will also then give the answer through the same priest, the priest will then delivered the message from the deities to the common folks.

With the advent of monotheism, they retained the old concept of their deity (far away, disconnected) in order to retain the role of intercessor performed by the priestly classes.. (Imams, Rabbis, Priests, Sheikh etc..)

The religion of Islam (as also Polytheistic / Pagan religion) build it's validity and power based on FEAR. FEAR from the wrath of disconnected and angry deities.


good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5244
  • Karma +4/-0
Re: Intercession confusion
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2020, 02:31:31 AM »
Peace jafar.
Sister Amra wanted the verse explained. i.e How do you understand verse 19:87?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

hawk99

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2310
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Intercession confusion
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2020, 09:59:42 AM »
Peace,  when I was Christian we had intercession, a savior, salvation in Jesus.
When I became Muslim we had Intercession thru Muhammad.  Neither are true.
As far as my understanding of 19:87 we don't change Allah's judgement, our plea
coincides with what Allah has already decided.

[39:43] Have they invented intercessors to mediate between them and GOD? Say,
"What if they do not possess any power, nor understanding?"

[39:44] Say, "All intercession belongs to GOD." To Him belongs all sovereignty of
the heavens and the earth, then to Him you will be returned.

                                                               :peace:

The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

TellMeTheTruth

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 304
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Intercession confusion
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2020, 10:50:03 AM »
Salam!
Confusion is due to the meaning of the word ش ف ع. This does not mean intercession. It means to second the words/decisions of Allah on the Judgment Day as those people witnessed His sovereignty in the worldly life.
The Rasool and Isa would be answering to some questions. AQ tells that none would ask Allah to forgive any guilty person. Even خ ل ل of Ibrahim would have no effect as Allah SWT would be the ملک یوم الدین.
Other people who would be given the اذن to speak would also speak the truth as witnesses only.
Peace!

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1207
  • Karma +4/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Intercession confusion
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2020, 05:50:09 PM »
Most verses say that there will be no intercession or no intercession unless God gives permission. It sounds like no one can intercede for you but I am confused about 19:87 which kind of sounds like some people will be abe able to intercede 19:87 None will have [power of] intercession except he who had taken from the Most Merciful a covenant.

What is your understanding?

Peace Amra and believers and good people...

I anticipate that your main concern is only verse 19:87 and all other intercession verses clear to you...
Here with my understanding you have bring into highlight is covenant...  People may make covenant while living with God whether believers or disbelievers...  God doesn't refuse when a covenant is made..  But He accepts or not is in His hand...look at the below verse...

"And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a COVENANT with Allah ? For Allah will NEVER BREAK His COVENANT. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"

there is something called intercession definitely...  But no-one will be favored or no will get injustice.. Nothing of God's decision will change...
This intercession is possibly an opportunity to talk on that day with God whomever God permit... It won't make any difference in God's decision.. Decisions are based on our act and not with what is discussed with God on that day..

Look at below verse

2:124 "And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [Allah] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [Allah] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

So Ibrahim and God has a covenant.. God knows what He covenanted with Ibrahim.. Ibrahim may or may not know fully what they were... So God won't reject any covenant made...
In such way... People of the past had given opportunities to have covenant while prophets and Messengers were delivering messages of God... So such people who made covenant with God has opportunity to talk to God depending on what the covenant were... But nothing will change God's decision.. Coz God's decides justly... It may go in their favor or against based on their action... But God won't deny the right to intercede if God covenanted...

@TMTT... 
It is intercession and not second I presume... People don't have right to second between God.. The word "Between " will help..

So.. Amra that's my understanding...  There is intercession and all intercession is in God's hand... No one will be given any injustice.. That's Gods promise... On that day not only God and Messengers speak but some people as well.. They are interceding with what they covenanted...

TellMeTheTruth

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 304
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Intercession confusion
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2020, 07:26:09 PM »
Dear jkhan!
Thanks. By to second, i meant to verify or to acknowledge the truth. I m not very good in English.
Peace!

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
  • Karma +111/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Intercession confusion
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2020, 10:42:13 PM »
Peace jafar.
Sister Amra wanted the verse explained. i.e How do you understand verse 19:87?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

There is NO intercession needed for communication with the one infinite source.
He/It's here, there everywhere not living in distant realm.
He/It knows the message that ANY of the being wanted to communicate even BEFORE the message being thought of by the being.

The only "intercession" that is possible is on the reply / action.
Example: You ask God something and you received the answer coming out from an old grandma who you happened to meet on the street. (Just one among Zillions of other example) or an apple falling down from the tree.

The One infinite source are in control of everyone and everything... thus everything has direct connection to Him / It.