Author Topic: DABA = AI  (Read 3892 times)

Layth

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DABA = AI
« on: December 11, 2019, 11:12:02 AM »
Salam,

I was reading 27:82 and have come to a slightly simplistic understanding.

We always read the verse in full sentence - thinking that the DABA will speak to the people informing them that they are unaware of God’s signs. However, there is another way to read it:

“And when the word has fallen upon them, We will produce for them a creature of the Earth that will speak to them. The people are unaware of Our signs”

This simple verse split changes the creature from one that converses about God - to one that simply speaks. This is Artificial Intelligence in its basic form and not a complicated prophet creature.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

jkhan

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Re: DABA = AI
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2019, 01:34:57 AM »
Salam,

I was reading 27:82 and have come to a slightly simplistic understanding.

We always read the verse in full sentence - thinking that the DABA will speak to the people informing them that they are unaware of God’s signs. However, there is another way to read it:

“And when the word has fallen upon them, We will produce for them a creature of the Earth that will speak to them. The people are unaware of Our signs”

This simple verse split changes the creature from one that converses about God - to one that simply speaks. This is Artificial Intelligence in its basic form and not a complicated prophet creature.

Peace Layth...

Absolutely.. It is one of the strange verses.. I wonder why you didn't fail to add it under Prophesy Segment...

Better to add the two previous verses as well...


27:80 " Thou shalt not make the dead to hear, neither shalt thou make the deaf to hear the call when they turn about, retreating"
27:81 " Thou shalt not guide the blind out of their error neither shalt thou make any to hear, save such as believe in Our signs, and so surrender"


God definitely speaks about the people who will never listen to the signs of God... God used Dabba in all other verses if i am not mistaken to living being not artificial ... But this looks very manifest that it is artificial with intent.... When all God Naturally created things failed with such people the artificial creature will speak... We don't have so far any such creature other than all we know... no need to explain... but next verse says 27:83 about the gathering day.... Loads of indication... In fact this is a prophecy in understanding..i believe that already being happening...

Note: God never created any creature other than Human apart from Jin that can speak... Somehow we don't see Jin.. If it is not artificial what is that intelligent natural Creature that can speak to those who don't believe in God and His signs..
God knows best....

quincy

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Re: DABA = AI
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2019, 01:57:10 PM »
sure and it will give us the answer: 42

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but next verse says 27:83 about the gathering day.... Loads of indication... In fact this is a prophecy in understanding..i believe that already being happening...

yes, shits getting real. the next year will be fun...

KDC501

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Re: DABA = AI
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2019, 09:15:04 PM »
Salam,

I was reading 27:82 and have come to a slightly simplistic understanding.

We always read the verse in full sentence - thinking that the DABA will speak to the people informing them that they are unaware of God’s signs. However, there is another way to read it:

“And when the word has fallen upon them, We will produce for them a creature of the Earth that will speak to them. The people are unaware of Our signs”

This simple verse split changes the creature from one that converses about God - to one that simply speaks. This is Artificial Intelligence in its basic form and not a complicated prophet creature.

It's an interesting theory but I can tell as a computer programmer and developer that AI is impossible. And I will go as far as to say that even if the human race existed for all eternity we may never reach the ability to produce a true AI. Human beings will never be able to design an AI because

- You cannot program what you do not know or fully understand. When a programmer programs he needs to have a blueprint. What are the mechanics of consciousness? What are all the processes that occur to make a being fully conscious? Science does not have a proper answer to any of the above questions. Therefore if science doesn't have the answer to this question how would a programmer know where to start and how to build a true AI without a blueprint of consciousness.
- Even if by some miracle we discover all of the processes and mechanics of consciousness that does not entail we will have the ability to create its likeness
- For you to develop a true AI you need a highly advanced programming language. None of the programming languages we have can make a true AI because all of the programming languages that exist will only allow you to create programs that are programmed by programmers. Everything is under the control of the programmer. A true AI must be developed by a programming language that can live, breathe and evolve. This capability I'm of a firm belief is completely beyond our reach and scope as human beings.

Regards,

Kevin




Jafar

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Re: DABA = AI
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2019, 10:43:06 PM »
It's an interesting theory but I can tell as a computer programmer and developer that AI is impossible.

If what you mean is TI (True Intelligence) and not AI (Artificial Intelligence) then I agree.

There's a reason why it's named as Artificial, because it means that it is fake. Artificial Intelligence means fake intelligence. It's not intelligence but it can be perceived as intelligence (by human) thus it's named as Artificial Intelligence.

The same as "Pseudo random" in computer lingo, it's not actually random but it can be perceived as random by it's observer (human) because true random doesn't exist.

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And I will go as far as to say that even if the human race existed for all eternity we may never reach the ability to produce a true AI. Human beings will never be able to design an AI because

Agree, human will never have the ability to produce a true intelligence.
In order to have true intelligence, human needs to produce creativity within the machine.
In order to produce creativity human need to tolerate the machine to be inconsistent, to venture forth from it's given framework and boundary condition which beats the purpose of building the machine in the first place. And the mechanism to produce such inconsistency is unknown.
It relate to the topics of producing "true random" as mentioned earlier, as long as "pseudo random" is being applied then true inconsistency cannot be achieved.

Imagine having an iPhone that no longer wanted to function just because it's in the bad mood?
Or it suddenly invented a virus on it's own in order to gain control of another iPhones?

Another example is in the case of "AI for self driving cars" in a condition where 3 possible outcome need to be chosen:
A. Turn a sharp left and crash to the pedestrian. (probable results: death of pedestrians)
B. Stay on course and let the suddenly appeared motorcycle to crash to you (probable results: death of the motorcyclist)
C. Turn a sharp right and crash to the river (probable results: self annihilation)

The programmer of the AI need to set a condition (weight factor) which outcome will be "more preferable". Survival of the self? Safety of pedestrian? Safety of another road users?

Once such condition is set, the AI will behave constantly following the condition set by the programmer.
OR
The programmer of the AI can apply "Pseudo Random" to set the weight factor thus sometimes the AI will choose A some other time B or C based on the current date and time when it happened (thus labelled as "Pseudo") But such decision will render the AI to be "unpredictable" thus "unsafe".

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- You cannot program what you do not know or fully understand. When a programmer programs he needs to have a blueprint. What are the mechanics of consciousness? What are all the processes that occur to make a being fully conscious? Science does not have a proper answer to any of the above questions. Therefore if science doesn't have the answer to this question how would a programmer know where to start and how to build a true AI without a blueprint of consciousness.

The true intelligence will need to have the capability to write it's own blueprint and discover it's own consciousness by itself.

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- For you to develop a true AI you need a highly advanced programming language. None of the programming languages we have can make a true AI because all of the programming languages that exist will only allow you to create programs that are programmed by programmers. Everything is under the control of the programmer. A true AI must be developed by a programming language that can live, breathe and evolve.

The true intelligence will need to have the capability to write it's own programming language, to devise it's own mechanism of hardware, to go beyond current capability and limitation of boolean logic math, to go even beyond applying the quantum probability and pairing mechanism for computation.

jkhan

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Re: DABA = AI
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2019, 12:52:25 AM »
It's an interesting theory but I can tell as a computer programmer and developer that AI is impossible. And I will go as far as to say that even if the human race existed for all eternity we may never reach the ability to produce a true AI. Human beings will never be able to design an AI because

- You cannot program what you do not know or fully understand. When a programmer programs he needs to have a blueprint. What are the mechanics of consciousness? What are all the processes that occur to make a being fully conscious? Science does not have a proper answer to any of the above questions. Therefore if science doesn't have the answer to this question how would a programmer know where to start and how to build a true AI without a blueprint of consciousness.
- Even if by some miracle we discover all of the processes and mechanics of consciousness that does not entail we will have the ability to create its likeness
- For you to develop a true AI you need a highly advanced programming language. None of the programming languages we have can make a true AI because all of the programming languages that exist will only allow you to create programs that are programmed by programmers. Everything is under the control of the programmer. A true AI must be developed by a programming language that can live, breathe and evolve. This capability I'm of a firm belief is completely beyond our reach and scope as human beings.

Regards,

Kevin

Peace...

22:73 “O men, a similitude is struck; so give you ear to it. Surely those upon whom you call, apart from God, shall NEVER CREATE A FLY, though they banded together to do it;……. ….”

The above verse clarifies that human or any other cannot even create a fly which is a true natural creature and not AI… So, what could be the creature that would speak to us as per verse 27:82… That says “We will bringforth” .. so God directly involved.. but it doesn’t mean that human cannot be involved in it, since ‘WE’ is used..
At the same time God says in verse 22:73 Human or any other creature cannot even create a fly…. Though human has made many powerful inventions but not natural creature.. True AI is still artificial coz it is not natural without human involvement…
So human will never ever create anything that is equal to natural creatures… So we can deduce that it is a true Artificial Intelligence if human happen to create or already created..… but if no human involved, then ……… 27:82 “And when the word befalls them … ”   Since it is happening at the edge of the day of resurrection, with possibilities, we can deduce something of a creature that no one ever has witnessed before from God’s side.. A real creature specifically designed for the purpose of talking to people to expose their denial manifestly in which human would keep his trust.... both possible..
that's my understanding....

KDC501

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Re: DABA = AI
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2019, 08:21:16 AM »
Peace,

If what you mean is TI (True Intelligence) and not AI (Artificial Intelligence) then I agree.

There's no such terminology called TI in engineering. There is Strong AI or True AI.  These are the engineering terminologies. Based on what Layth was proposing he was suggesting a True AI which is impossible to design since we don't have a blueprint to mimic its design. Most of what is engineered today are inspired by nature. If you don't know or fully understand the mechanics of consciousness how can any programmer or engineer even begin to design a True AI?

If you're in agreement that we cannot create a True AI then a regular AI which would be pre-programmed by humans beings isn't true intelligence. So, therefore, how can we use an AI as the meaning of the verses Sura 27:82?

The best interpretation of this verse is the computer. The computer is made of earthly materials and computes millions of calculations and handles multiple processes at amazing speeds. Sura 50 was the first sura that was imported into the computer that calculated the frequency of the letter Q(Qaf) as a multiple of 19. As a programmer and a strong proponent of code 19, I prefer this interpretation. Why?  A creature made of earthly materials could be easily be interpreted as a machine or a better yet a computer. Do machines/computers speak? Yeah, they do. They compute tasks and give readings to human beings through terminals and User Interfaces.

Regards,

Kevin

jkhan

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Re: DABA = AI
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2019, 09:45:58 AM »
Peace,

There's no such terminology called TI in engineering. There is Strong AI or True AI.  These are the engineering terminologies. Based on what Layth was proposing he was suggesting a True AI which is impossible to design since we don't have a blueprint to mimic its design. Most of what is engineered today are inspired by nature. If you don't know or fully understand the mechanics of consciousness how can any programmer or engineer even begin to design a True AI?

If you're in agreement that we cannot create a True AI then a regular AI which would be pre-programmed by humans beings isn't true intelligence. So, therefore, how can we use an AI as the meaning of the verses Sura 27:82?

The best interpretation of this verse is the computer. The computer is made of earthly materials and computes millions of calculations and handles multiple processes at amazing speeds. Sura 50 was the first sura that was imported into the computer that calculated the frequency of the letter Q(Qaf) as a multiple of 19. As a programmer and a strong proponent of code 19, I prefer this interpretation. Why?  A creature made of earthly materials could be easily be interpreted as a machine or a better yet a computer. Do machines/computers speak? Yeah, they do. They compute tasks and give readings to human beings through terminals and User Interfaces.

Regards,

Kevin

Peace...
Why brother  Layth's concern cannot be possible.. After all AI is a computer.. Do you agree? We know RK brought it saying it is computers that is meant by the verse 27:82 and not natural creature.. . But only with the advent of latest technology Layth used the word AI...  I hope..
If computers in general is Okay for you for the verse 27:82 then why not AI? Would you pls explain why?  Both human intelligence only produced.. Human made it and programmed but it doesn't mean that it can't go beyond human capacity.. Human programmed it but isn't computers faster and more precise than human...do we trust computers nowadays or human? Ponder... It can go on its own... That's AI...
For example God created human.. But didn't human deny God.. Just coz God created doesn't mean human cannot deny Him.. he can deny ... Same way.. Human created/programmed AI but it can deny human by being on its own...

God says it speaks and we human seems to be trusting in it while it exposes... So.. It seems human trust that creature better than human.. Coz that's seems special and better than human in general.. Hope you got me...

TI.. Lol.. Artificial intelligence is not fake...  AI better accepted than human nowadays.. Lol

KDC501

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Re: DABA = AI
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2019, 01:50:49 PM »
Peace...
Why brother  Layth's concern cannot be possible.. After all AI is a computer.. Do you agree? We know RK brought it saying it is computers that is meant by the verse 27:82 and not natural creature.. . But only with the advent of latest technology Layth used the word AI...  I hope..
If computers in general is Okay for you for the verse 27:82 then why not AI? Would you pls explain why?  Both human intelligence only produced.. Human made it and programmed but it doesn't mean that it can't go beyond human capacity.. Human programmed it but isn't computers faster and more precise than human...do we trust computers nowadays or human? Ponder... It can go on its own... That's AI...
For example God created human.. But didn't human deny God.. Just coz God created doesn't mean human cannot deny Him.. he can deny ... Same way.. Human created/programmed AI but it can deny human by being on its own...

God says it speaks and we human seems to be trusting in it while it exposes... So.. It seems human trust that creature better than human.. Coz that's seems special and better than human in general.. Hope you got me...

TI.. Lol.. Artificial intelligence is not fake...  AI better accepted than human nowadays.. Lol
Peace,

The 'AI' that we have today I wouldn't describe them as AI's but rather cleverly designed programs to give the appearance of intelligence. AI's like Google, Alexa, Siri, and Cortana, these AI's have no real intelligence. All responses and tasks are programmed. For example, if the user asks for a specific task to be done, based on the conditions programmed to handle such requests, the AI will execute accordingly. This is not intelligence. When programmers or engineers use the term AI to describe such programs/software they're being disingenuous. Not one program ever designed by man has any real intelligence. These systems that they describe as having AI are just for marketing purposes.

The creature described in Sura 27:82 can be described as a computer because anything that has been made by earthly materials and can 'speak' must be mechanical in nature. Please note that the verse never stated that the 'creature' had real intelligence. But rather it allowed human beings to see God's signs. That's all.

Regards,

Kevin

Jafar

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Re: DABA = AI
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2019, 04:11:19 PM »
Peace,

There's no such terminology called TI in engineering. There is Strong AI or True AI.  These are the engineering terminologies. Based on what Layth was proposing he was suggesting a True AI which is impossible to design since we don't have a blueprint to mimic its design. Most of what is engineered today are inspired by nature. If you don't know or fully understand the mechanics of consciousness how can any programmer or engineer even begin to design a True AI?

If there's one thing about software / computer industry that doesn't change is that they constantly rebranding the same old concept with new terminology..  :rotfl:

In the past (70's - 80s) the thing that now known as "Artificial Intelligence" / "Cognitive Intelligence" / "Strong AI" / "True AI" was labeled as "Automation / Autonomous Agent".

I prefer the "old name" as it's closer to the truth. Neural Networks, Decision Tree, Naive Bayes, K-Means Clustering are algorithm commonly used to build automation and autonomous agent. It's not intelligence at all, however the phenomenon that it creates somehow can be perceived as "intelligence" by the untrained mass.


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If you're in agreement that we cannot create a True AI then a regular AI which would be pre-programmed by humans beings isn't true intelligence.

True human like (or any sentient beings) intelligence requires creativity.. which the machine doesn't and cannot possess..



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Do machines/computers speak? Yeah, they do. They compute tasks and give readings to human beings through terminals and User Interfaces.

The machines do not speak, they merely generating an audio wave based on binary data being stored.
They don't have any clue of what is being spoken and have no intent by themselves to communicate.

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The 'AI' that we have today I wouldn't describe them as AI's but rather cleverly designed programs to give the appearance of intelligence. AI's like Google, Alexa, Siri, and Cortana, these AI's have no real intelligence. All responses and tasks are programmed.

Well said... inline of what I described above.

It's not Google Search, IBM Watson, Apple Siri who are 'intelligent'.
It's the team of Google programmers, IBM programmers, Apple programmers who are 'intelligent' and creative.

Google Search, Watson and Siri are just manifestation / product of the human programmers.

Taking this up to higher level on the network chain, the human programmers can also be viewed as merely the manifestation or product of the one infinite creator. The true source of creativity power that powered the human programmers. Thus everything are actually the creation of the one infinite creator; including Google Search, Watson and Siri.

Peace