Author Topic: Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples  (Read 1502 times)

Houriya

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Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples
« on: December 05, 2019, 11:27:50 PM »
Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples

This article is extracted from the site Nawat


https://nawaat.org/portail/2012/07/24/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-5-la-grande-utopie-de-la-reforme-et-le-bonus-dukhanus/

When you read eating and drinking until dawn you understand not to drink and not to eat until evening. If you were not intoxicated by your Sheikhales beliefs, you might have been able to consider, according to your verse, that Siyam means retreat in the Masajids and that only the prohibition of "approaching" women is maintained in the day.

Why then does the verse reiterate the prohibition of approaching women if "your deduction" is valid and, if it is just to clarify, why does it not also clarify it for drinking and eating?

Nowhere in the Koran is it said that one should neither drink nor eat. On the other hand, a clear definition of saum exists in the Koran and it is Issa who gives it to his mother:

19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

 19:26    فكلي واشربي وقري عينا فإما ترين من البشر أحدا فقولي إني نذرت للرحمن صوما فلن أكلم اليوم إنسيا

The siyam  is, once again, a spiritual retreat where we do not speak to humans and where we spiritually isolate ourselves from their nonsense. Not to drink or to eat is a handicap in spiritual retreat.

I add if you allow, here are two verses concerning the same divine miracle concerning the prophet Zechariah and his prayer (secret according to 19-3) to have a son :

3:41    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

 3:41    قال رب اجعل لي ءاية قال ءايتك ألا تكلم الناس ثلثة أيام إلا رمزا واذكر ربك كثيرا وسبح بالعشي والإبكر


19:10    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

 19:10    قال رب اجعل لي ءاية قال ءايتك ألا تكلم الناس ثلث ليال سويا

The only way to consider that these two miracles are the same is to consider that Zachariah did not speak already during the day. 3 nights would be equivalent to 3 days.

Zachariah, necessarily, was necessarily already in spiritual retreat during the day.

This is confirmed by the verse:

3:39    So the angels called to him while he was standing, connecting, in the enclosure: "God gives you glad tidings of John, affirming the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright."

3:39    فنادته الملئكة وهو قائم يصلي في المحراب أن الله يبشرك بيحيى مصدقا بكلمة من الله وسيدا وحصورا ونبيا من الصلحين

It was really Ramadan. The fact that it is the angels who speak to him is proof.

Also consider the verses:

2:183    O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.

 2:183    يأيها الذين ءامنوا كتب عليكم الصيام كما كتب على الذين من قبلكم لعلكم تتقون

2:184    A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.

 2:184    أياما معدودت فمن كان منكم مريضا أو على سفر فعدة من أيام أخر وعلى الذين يطيقونه فدية طعام مسكين فمن تطوع خيرا فهو خير له وأن تصوموا خير لكم إن كنتم تعلمون

2:203    And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.

 2:203    واذكروا الله في أيام معدودت فمن تعجل في يومين فلا إثم عليه ومن تأخر فلا إثم عليه لمن اتقى واتقوا الله واعلموا أنكم إليه تحشرون

Comparing 2-183 and 2-203, we see, once again, that siyam is equivalent to invoking God. The marker here is the expression number of days determined (ayyam maadoudat) whose tartil shows that it appears only three times in the quran. The third is irrelevant, in verse 3-24, which speaks of a belief in a purgatory of a few days.

The expression Ayyam Maadudat means a small number of 3 to 10 days. Verse 2-203 expresses the idea that it is not within two days.

Do not eat and drink if you want. But it is not the quran that asks you.

On the other hand, the periods of Hajj and Siyam are ten days and merge:

 89:2    And ten nights.

2:196    And conclude the hadj / debate and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then provide what offering is affordable; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. When you are secure, then whoever enjoys the visit until the hajj/debate, then he shall provide what offering is affordable; but for he who cannot find anything, then the fast of three days during the hajj and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten-this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

Verse 2-196 is clear. The hajj (debater) is exempt from Siyam. On the other hand, one who has gone only as a visitor or merchant (Umra ila el Hajj) can get by with an offering. If he does not have the means, then Siyam is his. This makes him 3 days on the spot, 0 during the trip and 7 on his return. Either the ten requested in all. This is not a calculating exercise to show that God knows how to add 3 and 7.

The Quran clearly defines what the sacred night is. It's the night the angels go down.

97:3    The Night of Decree / alqadr is better than one thousand shahr.

97:4    The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of their Lord to carry out every matter.

This is the relationship between the angels and Ramadan. That's why I said that the announcement made to Zechariah was indeed to the Ramadan Shar.

If the angels spoke to him, it was the night of Qadr.

As luck would have it, we also find the ten days in the verse:

7:142    And We set a meeting for Moses in thirty nights, and We complemented them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was set at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron: "Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters."

Another revelation (necessarily the night of Qadr) with ten clear days. It is also far from being an addition exercise in the Qur'an to show that 30 + 10 = 40.

What is more logical in your opinion, do not eat, do not drink for a month, or honor the Koran the day it was revealed by spending 10 days of meditation or ten days of debate?



Siyam is dedicated / vowed to God :

19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

7:31    O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.


Siyam as purification of these errors / kaffarah :
3 days or 2 consecutive full moons, or equivalency in siyam in the case of
 is decreed to have God's forgiveness and  repentance.

I think there is a common root between (sama / sawm / siyam) and (summun / dumb) or it's just a coincidence ?

The expected goal of siyam is to protect our self from / la3allaqum tattaqoon / perhaps you may be righteous / pious.

My first spiritual retreat the 5th of July 2020, first night of siyam, God willing



This topic has been discussed here:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610857.0

Wakas

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Re: Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2019, 12:54:17 AM »
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Houriya

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Re: Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2019, 01:33:17 AM »
Thank you.

Houriya

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Re: Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2020, 12:09:49 AM »
extract from this thread

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610701.30

Peace,

The meaning of siyam in the Reading :

2:185    The shahr of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion . Those of you who have witnessed the shahr shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

As for alhajj, God shows us what is allowed and what is not allowed durind the nignt and the day of siyam.
Do not to be confused these prescriptions with the meaning of hajj or siyam.
Siyam concerns the night and the day, there is no interruption.

2:187    It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knew that you used to betray your souls, so He has redeemed you, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people that they may be righteous.

2:197    The Pilgrimage is in the appointed months; so whoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor wickedness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O you who possess intelligence.

Peace

The same verb « atimmoo » is used to say  :

then you shall complete / continue / atimmoo  the siyam until night (2:187)

And conclude / atimmoo the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. (2:196)

And the birth mothers may suckle their children two full cycles, if they wish to complete / yutimma the suckling. (2:233)

9:4 Except for those with whom you had made a pledge from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they support anyone against you; you shall continue / faatimmoo the pledge with them until its expiry / until the agreed term / muddatihim. God loves the righteous.

This verb is used when it is a period of time (month, day, cycles). There is the notion of continuing an action for a fixed period of time without interruption.


Houriya

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Re: Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2020, 11:04:41 AM »
Peace,

58:3
Those who had estranged their women, then they retracted what they had said, they shall free a slave before they have sexual contact between them. This is to enlighten you. God is well aware of everything you do.

God knew that human being used to betray his souls, God allowed during the night sexual contact in 2.187
But   in 58:4 any sexual contact between them day and night.

58:4
If he cannot find any, then siyam of two consecutive full moon before any sexual contact between them. If he cannot, then he shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would believe in God and His messenger. And these are the boundaries set by God. The disbelievers have incurred a painful retribution.


2:187
It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knew that you used to betray your souls, so He has redeemed you, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete / continue siyam until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people that they may be righteous.

In 4:92,  siyam of two consecutive full moon is as a repentance from God / to be forgiven by God.

4:92
And it is not for a believer to kill another believer except by accident. And whoever kills a believer by accident, then he shall free a believing slave, and give compensation to the family; except if they remit it. If he was from a people who are enemies to you, and he was a believer, then you shall free a believing slave. And if he was from a people with whom you have a covenant, then a compensation to his family, and free a believing slave. Whoever does not find, then siyam of two consecutive full moon as a repentance from God; for God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Peace

Wakas

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Re: Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2020, 12:16:50 PM »
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html

2:187 Lawful for you nights (of) the abstinence is sexual approach* to your women, they are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray/deceive yourselves so He turned towards you and He forgave you; so now approach** them and seek what God has decreed/written for you. And eat and drink until becomes distinct the white thread from the black thread, of dawn. Then you shall complete the abstinence until the night, and do not approach** them while you are devoting/cleaving in the maSaJiD. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous/God-concious.
*Arabic: RaFaTh (root: Ra-Fa-Tha)
**Arabic: BaShiR (root: Ba-Shin-Ra)

IF one takes masajid=mosques then if women were not allowed in them, it would make this statement illogical, thus clearly implying women could be present in the mosques. It also implies men and women are unlikely to be segregated, as they could approach one another, i.e. interact.
    Who in their right mind would approach their wife in a sexual manner in a public Mosque? Was this such a temptation or common practice that AQ had to tell them not to do it? According to history/tradition mosques in those early days were very basic or simply courtyards thus unlikely to have multiple rooms so it seems even more odd to suggest such a thing taking place in a Mosque. This traditional understanding verges on the nonsensical.
    IF masajids=mosques, why even mention mosques, when there is much greater chance of sexual temptation in the homes during abstinence? The traditional commentators attempt an explanation for this, e.g Jalalayn/Ibn Kathir say this is referring to 'itikaf' (spiritual retreat in the mosque) when believers would leave the mosque for sex then return, when they are meant to reside at the mosque for a certain number of days. This is a complete insertion of course, and hardly "clear" as it implies at the end of the verse, and the obvious error as it says "...WHILE YOU are devoting/cleaving IN the masajid" not when one leaves them. So, it would seem they interpret it as "...while you are staying in the masajid (for itikaf)...".
    If it did mean 'itikaf' then this is not explained elsewhere in AQ, e.g. how many days, what does it involve, why, is it obligatory, examples of anyone actually doing it etc. If we are relying upon AQ only for our understanding of this verse, then 'itikaf' must be rejected outright. The consequence of this however, is that it renders the understanding of masajid=mosques illogical, or at least very unusual.
    Another explanation put forth for this verse is that sexual approach to your women is permitted in the nights of the abstinence but not when one is staying in the mosques, e.g. The Sacred Mosque (in Mecca). Not for "itikaf" per se but simply a spiritual/devotional retreat there, e.g. travellers to The Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) may have come from afar and thus set up tents there, and this verse is referring to them (a verse cited to support this notion of "residency/staying" is 22:25). Not that I necessarily agree with this explanation, but it is at least more plausible than the Traditional explanation, which advocates a specific practice of "itikaf" rather than an undefined one. It is debatable whether the word "akif" means "reside/stay" according to Quran usage, but in any case people staying-over in the mosque seems odd/impractical if one takes "tawaf" as "circumambulation" for example, and the "hadiy" (gifts/offerings) are also to be taken to such a venue. It could make "circumambulation" rather awkward, and if many residents/gifts/animals, perhaps impossible.


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Houriya

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Re: Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2020, 08:18:57 PM »
In the verse 2:187, it does not say do not approach them  in the temple but while you are devoting / waantum 'akifoon in the temple.
We don't spend the whole day in the temple, we take the time to eat, take a nap.

waantum 'akifoon is like wantum hurum in the verse  5 :1 =  while you  are under this condition : 'akifoon / in retreat. You can approch them during the nignt. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them.

5:1    O you who believe, fulfill the contracts. Permitted for you are the domesticated livestock, except that which is being recited to you—while maintaining the ban on hunting while you are under restriction / wantum hurum. God decrees as He pleases.

Houriya

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Re: Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2020, 06:03:03 AM »
Peace Jkhan,

Why did God only specify not to approach women when we are on retreat during the day?
the Reading is straightforward in the instructions. this is what is allowed for us on the night of siyam and what is not allo during the day.

I my previous messages, I talked about the definition of siyam as for hajj, we shouldn't confuse them with the instructions to be observed during siyam and hajj.

If the verse 2 : 187 is clear, everything else will be clear.

Why shahr ramadan is of the utmost importance ?
What should be done during siyam ?

The following verse clearly answers these questions

2:185    The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.


Peace Sister..

I have a concern...
Would you pls explain 58:04 or 5:95 or any other fasting.. Does it befit retreat with all siyam?
Why expiation of siyam?  Elaborate to us pls how it works for expiation...

jkhan

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Re: Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2020, 07:35:51 AM »
Peace Jkhan,

Why did God only specify not to approach women when we are on retreat during the day?
the Reading is straightforward in the instructions. this is what is allowed for us on the night of siyam and what is not allo during the day.

I my previous messages, I talked about the definition of siyam as for hajj, we shouldn't confuse them with the instructions to be observed during siyam and hajj.

If the verse 2 : 187 is clear, everything else will be clear.

Why shahr ramadan is of the utmost importance ?
What should be done during siyam ?

The following verse clearly answers these questions

2:185    The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

Peace Sister..

I hope you didn't answer my original question..
Question is

Peace Sister..

I have a concern...
Would you pls explain 58:04 or 5:95 or any other fasting.. Does it befit retreat with all siyam?
Why expiation of siyam?  Elaborate to us pls how it works for expiation
..

Houriya

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Re: Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2020, 07:42:56 AM »
I answered your question with another question.
Our discrepancy concerns verses 2: 185 and 187. If these two verses are clear, the rest is clear.

Why did God only specify only not to approach women when we are on retreat during the day?

Why shahr ramadan is of the utmost importance ?
What should be done during siyam ?

The following verse clearly answers these questions

2:185    The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.


Peace Sister..

I hope you didn't answer my original question..
Question is

Peace Sister..

I have a concern...
Would you pls explain 58:04 or 5:95 or any other fasting.. Does it befit retreat with all siyam?
Why expiation of siyam?  Elaborate to us pls how it works for expiation
..