Author Topic: Critique and refutation of Joseph Islam's article: 'Five prayers from The Quran'  (Read 1615 times)

Wakas

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New article:

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran - Part 2
Critique and Refutation of Joseph Islam's article 'Five prayers from The Quran'


https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Critique-Refutation-5-salat-Quran.html



All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

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Peace Wakas.
While you may have looked at possible errors at Joseph s views and explanations, you have not concluded with evidence how many salat and why according to Qoran.

I find the following links  have more evidence and explain the context of why Qoran uses the "Al" for the specific "Al Salat" verses:
http://tadabbur.org/front-page/salat/

http://tadabbur.org/front-page/salat/essentials/

http://tadabbur.org/details-of-salah/

GOD bless you.
Peace.
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good logic

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Also, I believe it is futile to debate meanings of words using any outside source. Qoran explains itself .
I therefore agree with this summary about "The Salat" in Qoran, quote:

The traditionalists pose the question in an attempt to appeal to sources and authorities besides God and His messenger.

 Many  Quranists/Quranites, as they often refer to themselves, on the other hand have written elaborate treatises dissecting words and verses of the Quran and hair splitting Arabic words in an attempt to expound the meaning of the word the salat. it  has been woven into cryptic descriptions like in the examples listed below.

The fuzzier it gets the greater the ease of wriggling out of the obligation of having to do anything about it. In the end they have lost the ritual of connecting with our Creator, which is the plain, simple, evident meaning of the word Aquim the salat in the Arabic language. Some examples are below.
sujood 9in The Salat verses) is some incomprehensible entity, not the simple invitation from God to fall prostrate to become close to Him (96:19), when they were whole and able (68:42-43, 7:206,77:48,25:60, 27:25).
the performance of some unspecified duty
some form of commitment, the details of which are absent
a utopian establishment of divine system, based heavily on anti-Persian and anti-Zoroastrian bigotry.
a treatise on what the salat is not, but sparse on what it is (that ends on the theme that this specific commandment actually means do whatever you feel like).
And it is worthwhile noting that the sources and authorities (hadith literature or the classical jurists) that the traditionalist tries to validate by asking this question do not have the elaborate descriptions he pretends to expect in the Quran. The only details the classical sources have are the source of contradictions over which different sects and schools of jurisprudence disagree about (like where to tie your hand, whether to raise your hands during takbir etc.).
And the Quranite, by pretending to be ignorant of the meanings of simple Arabic words, was forced to spin fanciful theories on what he thought  the salat is, that are not evident from the Quran. And fancier conspiracy theories on how the present day ritual of the salat came to be. Figments of his own imagination, these theories are devoid of any detail that can be found in the Quran, which was ironically the reason he claimed for disregarding the traditional meaning of the word in the first place.

But the premise that the Quran tried to introduce a new ritual/practice during the life of Muhammad, whose followers were expected to hack the verses of the Quran to decode what it was, is a very faulty one. Based on this premise, those that tried to treat the Quran like a cookbook to reconstruct steps of the salat, after discarding the knowledge of the salat we already have, ended up on a very slippery slope. And many have managed to go off the deep end.
We have to ask God to teach us how to pray, not try to teach God how we think He should have taught it.
GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Wakas

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peace GL,

While you may have looked at possible errors at Joseph s views and explanations, you have not concluded with evidence how many salat and why according to Qoran.

I find the following links  have more evidence...

You must be a very fast reader considering you posted your reply 51mins after my post. If you had actually read the article AND the links it does provide sufficient evidence for the timings according to my view.
However, I will admit it would be nice to have it all in one place. Perhaps this is an article idea for the future. There is this compilation which is decent.

If you are implying that article you linked to is also your view (with regard to timings) then I will happily critique it. We have discussed timings before but, as is often the case with proponents of 5x per day, they do not provide enough info to examine it.


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

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Peace Wakas.

I have read your article. I also have had conversations with you on the topic of "The salat" ,

I disagree with your methods. For example you say here,quote:
Note that the entire purpose of his article is to discuss how many "salat" there are, therefore "salat" is THE "key and decisive Arabic term", thus it is THE most important word to translate correctly (at least grammatically).

 For me,Salat can have many other meanings, but "The Salat" the specific contact prayer has only one meaning in all the verses.

Also this, quote
In 17:78 he incorrectly translates the singular "salat" as the plural "prayers" then follows onto argue for more than one "prayer" in 17:78-79. Another convenient coincidence.

For me, while in this particular verse there is only one Salat because there is only one time mentioned, in other verses there may be a singular salat but in plural times like the three different times mentioned here:
وَأَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ طَرَفَىِ النَّهارِ وَزُلَفًا مِنَ الَّيلِ إِنَّ الحَسَنٰتِ يُذهِبنَ السَّيِّـٔاتِ ذٰلِكَ ذِكرىٰ لِلذّٰكِرينَ

So in summary, it will be futile carrying on the discussion already done few times in the past.
Readers can see both sides given in this thread and decide for themselves.
I honestly see this in your analysis:
You have written elaborate treatises dissecting words and verses of the Quran and hair splitting Arabic words in an attempt to expound the meaning of the word the salat and/or its times..

Therefore if you wish to critique views of The Salat whether mine or those I agree with ,go ahead, I will not answer unless I see clear evidence from you about all the verses that include "The Salat" and its times

Or better still do a summary for us what you think "The Salat" is? When was it required for the believers?  Where are the details of your explanations of it in Qoran? And how many exactly , when and why? All from verses of Qoran.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Wakas

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peace GL,

You claim to have read the article AND links yet go on about meaning of salat. This article/thread is not about meaning of salat. Please do not discuss meaning of salat any further in this thread.

You then go on to contradict yourself by implying I have written "elaborate treatises dissecting words and verses of the Quran and hair splitting Arabic words in an attempt to expound the meaning of the word the salat and/or its times.." yet ask me for a summary of my view.

If you want a short summary I will quote from my article that you apparently read:

Quote
the salat should be done during/close to the morning & evening twilight times (i.e. a minimum of 2x per day) [11:114, 17:78, 24:58]

And I agree we have discussed this before thus the chances of any new conversation being fruitful is low. It should be noted you have never pointed out any error in my timing article and links which you have apparently read.

As I have mentioned before almost all proponents of the 5x salat daily view do not provide enough info on timings so their view can be examined. I note you did not confirm that article you linked to was also your view/evidence. The only reason I critiqued Joseph Islam's article was that he actually attempted to provide the detail necessary.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

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Peace Wakas.
The most important thing is to know what is "The Salat", This is the specific instruction in Qoran to many prophets/messengers throughout Qoran. Yet you say your article only deals with timing?,quote:
 This article/thread is not about meaning of salat. Please do not discuss meaning of salat any further in this thread.

Then your short summary is, quote:
the salat should be done during/close to the morning & evening twilight times (i.e. a minimum of 2x per day) [11:114, 17:78, 24:58]

That is why we need to know the exact meaning of "the Salat" ,its  origin and timing. Should it not be all in?
 If GOD called it "The Salat" then it is something specific that should be done consistently throughout its history.

As for what you say here:
 It should be noted you have never pointed out any error in my timing article and links which you have apparently read.

I disagree with your summary . If there are only 2  Salat  why add a minimum of 2 per day? Are you not sure?

As I mentioned in our past conversation I say there are exactly 5 per day according to my understanding of these verses(11:14,17:78 and 24:58). So of course I am pointing to the error of your understanding of the words of the verses in my opinion since we have different understanding .
Perhaps you do not see any evidence in my view, I also do not see any evidence is yours I am sorry to say.
Hence we disagree.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Wakas

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peace GL,

Let me help you (and others) by clarifying what I mean by finding an error in my work. I will give some examples of errors:

incorrect Arabic word form, e.g. it is actually a plural not singular, it is actually verb form 4 not 2, it is a noun not a verb, the pronoun is masculine not feminine, wrong root etc

your understanding of verse X contradicts verse Y

you said X but this contradicts what you said elsewhere Y

your understanding of verse X is not possible to do practically because of ABC

etc.

In other words something of substance, and ideally falsifiable, i.e. it is possible to prove/disprove.


Quote
"If there are only 2  Salat  why add a minimum of 2 per day? Are you not sure?"

That is what the Quranic evidence says according to my research. To answer your question it is logical to have a minimum but not a maximum, some may be able to do more or perform each for longer. I mention this in my SaBiH article which you have apparently read. There is an voluntary/optional night vigil which has a variable timing [17:79, 73:20], i.e. do whatever is easy of it. Hence I say a minimum of two daily for the mumineen.

The minimum of twice daily for the mumineen is astute in other ways, e.g. it can encompass understandings such as thrice daily or 5 daily etc.
It is easily the most cogent understanding as per Quran, and that is why you (or anyone) will struggle to find flaws in it. You will note for example Joseph Islam's response article never disproved any point I made in my original critique. If you (or anyone) disagree feel free to cite it..... since you've read them apparently.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

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Peace Wakas.
 You may say the following, quote:
"The minimum of twice daily for the mumineen is astute in other ways, e.g. it can encompass understandings such as thrice daily or 5 daily etc.
It is easily the most cogent understanding as per Quran, and that is why you (or anyone) will struggle to find flaws in it. You will note for example Joseph Islam's response article never disproved any point I made in my original critique. If you (or anyone) disagree feel free to cite it..... since you've read them apparently."

Yet I remain confused ,reading your views on the main and most important thing:How to do the Salat?

Also this is not as easy as you seem to think here, quote:
"Let me help you (and others) by clarifying what I mean by finding an error in my work. I will give some examples of errors:
incorrect Arabic word form, e.g. it is actually a plural not singular, it is actually verb form 4 not 2, it is a noun not a verb, the pronoun is masculine not feminine, wrong root etc
your understanding of verse X contradicts verse Y
you said X but this contradicts what you said elsewhere Y
your understanding of verse X is not possible to do practically because of ABC
etc.
In other words something of substance, and ideally falsifiable, i.e. it is possible to prove/disprove."

 All we are doing here is following our own logic and misunderstanding GOD s words.

Qoran s style can break the norm ,the context sometimes defines the interpretations not the meaning of single words like for example:
لا تَدعُوا اليَومَ ثُبورًا وٰحِدًا وَادعوا ثُبورًا كَثيرًا
Here a single "remorses" is not a  singular word remorse but one group of similar remorses...
And here:
وَأَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ طَرَفَىِ النَّهارِ وَزُلَفًا مِنَ الَّيلِ إِنَّ الحَسَنٰتِ يُذهِبنَ السَّيِّـٔاتِ ذٰلِكَ ذِكرىٰ لِلذّٰكِرينَ
Even though "The Salat" is singular, the times are 3 identified times "Tarafay Al Mahar" 2 times and "Zulafan Mina Al Layl" 1 more time. So 3 Salats.(My understanding)
And many more examples where Qoran uses its own style of grammar and language.

For me, the most important thing to understand about "The Salat" is the following:
1-What is this "The Salat"-AL Salat in Arabic-?
2- What did the prophet do when he was instructed to "Aquimi Al Salat"?, bearing in mind Qoran was given in portions of verses and not as a whole and the prophet had no other details about it except what his tribe were doing it.
3-What were his tribe doing when "Wa Idha Quamu Ila AL sALAT,, Quamu Kussala...."?
4-How many times was he doing "The Salat" and why there are no questions from his tribe in Qoran about "The Salat"?
5-How are we supposed to do this "The Salat" consistently and exactly" like they did?
 6- Did GOD send a clarifying messenger after him to clarify and confirm this "The Salat"?
6-Does Qoran indicate that this will be the case?

Then we can move towards accepting Qoran as a whole and dissecting all the verses of "the Salat" and "Kibla" and"Ruku" And "Sujud" and many more other words that connect to "The Salat"- the connection with GOD.

So ,like you said,your methods and my methods are not the same. I have a different way of looking at "The Salat "than you have.
 I believe if we dissect verses independently , ignoring other verses that may connect/explain them ,,we will be following our own logic rather than GOD s logic.
However, you are entitled to your way.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/