Author Topic: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)  (Read 4599 times)


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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2019, 05:15:46 AM »

2:184    A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it / waan tasoomoo is better for you if only you knew.

2:185    Shahr Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed alshashahr shall fast it / falyasumu; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

When one had witnessed Shahr Ramadhan, what are we doing ?

I asoom, you tasoom / tasoomoo, we nasoom, the action is sawm, the same letters are repeated S W M.

what did this Marie did during the action of  sawm, she tasoom (S W M).

Dear Sister....

Don't confuse yourself in the hunt of substantiating your claim with clear Arabic word usage...
Root is same I mentioned in my reply #16... Just coz root  doesn't mean that the meaning also will become same...
While forming verb from root.. It may look same... That's how all Arabic words... For example take word salah.. Root is ṣād lām wāw (S L W)..
All noun is not prayer and while forming Verb from root it may look similar but different meaning... Example 3:39 'Yusalli' here it means (verb) praying... 33:43 'Yusalli' here it means (verb) blessing...

So 'Sawm' 19:26 is same root but different meaning...  Most probably being Silent...

Dear sister.. Just once again carefully look the word 'Nadzrathu' in 19:26 .. Do you accept it means Vow (pledging or making a solemn promise)... It is a vow even you accept or not.. Take example of another word 'nadzarthu'.. Maryam's mother made in verse 3:35 "when the wife of 'Imran said, "My Lord, indeed I have pledged (Nadzarthu) to You(God) what is in my womb, consecrated so accept this from me. Indeed, You are the Hearing, the Knowing."
These pledging or solemn promise or vow (Nadzarth) is not at all part of compulsory act in deen.. It is one's own wish willingly and they decide in their own to do something for God.. But whether God accept or not such act is only within God's decision... But once anyone made such solemn promise is not exempted from doing it.. They have to accomplish it... Suppose If I promise to God that I will give 100 poor people with new clothing if I pass the exam... So in case if he passes he has to accomplish it... Coz it is an agreement you made with your Lord.. You can't escape... That's my understanding...

So my dear sister... What is prescribed by Allah to perform in 2:184 is not a Vow... It's a command of God and not our own option..
Pls try to ponder...
That's all dear..

Note: if one vows or make a solemn promise to God saying "If I found my lost child,  I would fast five days...  Then in case she or he found the child she or he should fast five days...  People may vow anything making a contact with God.. So it should be accomplished...  76:7 "They fulfill [their] vows(Nadzar) and fear a Day whose evil will be widespread"


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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2019, 05:21:14 AM »

Sorry, but you have contradictory positions.

On the one hand you agree (at Z no more X and Y, ergo, a fast has started at point Z) but then say "the word complete implies that something was starting before ". You already admitted (indirectly) it (a fast) has started, so what's the problem?

Your position makes no sense and is contradictory.
Sorry but you will be less confuse if you are concentrated (Let's have a look at my conclusion again) But I can understand that it is not easy because you, as the big majority of muslims, do not undertsand the real difference between sawm and siyam. You canno't be agree with me but at least try to understand my reasoning as you were me :

Further explanations
- The day can be divided in 2 parts : from sunset to dawn (period 1) and from dawn to sunset (period 2).
Agree ? If Yes we can continue

- The MAIN subject of the passage (2-183..187) is about SIYAM.
Agree ? If Yes we can continue.

Now, 2 sentences from quran (Each of these sentences corresponds to one of the periods mentioned above) :

1) First sentence "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn." = period 1
2 characteristics :
- SAWM ? NO.

2) Second sentence ""thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night." = period 2
2 characteristics :

This understanding is logical with Allah words (atimmū/complete). In (2-183...187), SAWM (understanding in this particular context as "not eating and drinking") must be doing DURING the SIYAM period (24 hours) but not all the day.


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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2020, 10:17:09 AM »

But from its(SJD) occurrences in the Qur’an,

I make it "But from its (human SJD) occurrences in the Qur’an,"
Examples, 12:100, 17:107,109, 19:58 etc.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]


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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2020, 11:33:57 AM »
The definition of siyam in this verse :

19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence / sawman for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

19:10    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

3:41    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Mary and Zachariah refrained from speaking which makes sense when one is retired.

"It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam".

Does the night include the day as for  Zachariah?

The restriction "until the white thread is distinct from  the black thread of dawn" concern only to approach your women sexually. That makes sense when one is in retreat in the masjid.

The verse 2:185 explains the start of siyam and why it's so important, to magnify God for what He has guided you to.

Concerning Maryam, the event is related to her having the newborn child with her and her being asked about it. So she is advised to say (and that means speaking) that she has vowed to the Rahmaan sawm and therefore that day will not speak to anybody. That continues even when she returns to her people and she does not anser questions about the child, simply points to him. So it is all related to her bein in the situation she was, as a other with newborn or baby, no husband or fathe and it is following devine advise that she does not answer questions because she has vowed thatto the Rahmaan.