Author Topic: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)  (Read 2721 times)

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2019, 05:43:42 PM »
Peace,

We can not consider that part of the verses. God explains, repeats and brings complementary information in each verse, as for salat / zakkat.

Every verse should be considered and cross referenced... That's what I pointed out Maryam and zakaria irrelevant...
Siyam is complete in verses 2:183-187..try to grasp it with further studies... May God bless you

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2019, 05:48:14 PM »
Focus only on what is said in the verse:

continue / complete  siyam,

what are we doing during siyam : you are devoted in the temples

and do not approach women sexually  while you are devoted in the temples.

nothing to add.

Pls try to understand  that there is no siyam duirng night whatever the meaning You get for siyam... So only siyam during day (nahar)...  So no chance of sex... Just try to get basic when God use 'Uhilla' that is to say Halal for you your own wife during night to approach... Why specify it is halal at night then imagine what is during day... No need to highlight night and say halal... Apply more common sense in that... Then you will grasp...

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2019, 05:56:13 PM »
Another verse :

7:31    O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.
In ancient time, a sanctuary was a most frequent place where people went to undertake religious rituals, sacrifice, prayer, and the giving of votive offerings, making vowes and accomplish them.. Some sanctuaries, additionally, acted as meeting places, trading places, political centres, and so on. ... Many places and things were considered sacred in antiquity.... Further sanctuaries were place of refuge and rest especially in peace.. This was common throughout the world in ancient times... These sanctuaries were part and parcel of yester year people and it was imperative for their life and all regardless of their belief respected sanctuaries and it was not place to fight in general ..
It such a place to visit in tidy dress and a place where you happen to eat and drink abundantly by looking at what is happening there... Even mostly free or paid... Children of Adam means anyone regardless of faith... So all are welcome in sanctuaries of God and eat n drink... As long as they obey and respect the sanctuaries ...

In addition to that... I think I talked about this in my old threads... Order of revelation is perfect for me.. No idea who preserved it... It has to be in any way QURAN is around.. Common sense is that before instructed anything to do the way of doing it must be given.... If God said to fast in an earlier verse then it is meaningless unless people knew when to fast and what to do..  So order of revelation is is key... Chapter 2:183-187 is revealed well before all other fasting occurences revealed... For example.. If God revealed fast consecutive shahrain as punishment then first he should know what is fasting .... So God revealed 2:183-187 then only all siyam... Look below link for order of revelation...

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur%27an


Iyyaka

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2019, 01:55:38 AM »
Pls try to understand  that there is no siyam duirng night whatever the meaning You get for siyam... So only siyam during day (nahar)...  So no chance of sex... Just try to get basic when God use 'Uhilla' that is to say Halal for you your own wife during night to approach... Why specify it is halal at night then imagine what is during day... No need to highlight night and say halal... Apply more common sense in that... Then you will grasp...
Salam,

I quoted your answer to Houriya - Ok let's apply common sense and see what the Qur'an says.

-- Your statement: siyam = "do not eat and drink during the day."

Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187:
First part:
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn.
Second part:
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.

Comparing these two parts and IF your classic statement is correct, then we must admit that the Quran contradicts itself!

One conclusion is necessary: either Allah contradicts himself and we twist the meaning of this passage if we are believers (not faithful) avoiding contradiction, OR our understanding of the word Siyam is not the right one.

Peace
The words of Allah speak for themselves.

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2019, 03:15:45 AM »
Salam,

I quoted your answer to Houriya - Ok let's apply common sense and see what the Qur'an says.

-- Your statement: siyam = "do not eat and drink during the day."

Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187:
First part:
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn.
Second part:
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.

Comparing these two parts and IF your classic statement is correct, then we must admit that the Quran contradicts itself!

One conclusion is necessary: either Allah contradicts himself and we twist the meaning of this passage if we are believers (not faithful) avoiding contradiction, OR our understanding of the word Siyam is not the right one.

Peace
The words of Allah speak for themselves.

Peace Dear brother....
Nice to see you back after a while...

First of all nothing is my statement...  Quran has stated and people are here to understand and their understanding of Quran speaks with words...

Accordingly...  My understanding of siyam with thorough application of thought into it is non other but avoiding the consumption of food and drink and avoid sex during Nahar (Day)...
Does it contradict with what is written in Quran?  If you claim so, it is your responsibility to explain how it contradicts rather than just wording; it contradicts... I may contradict but QURAN will never...
Look brother... Keep a very open mind... Forget who I am and the way you consider me as a person and only apply to your thought what I speak and not as a person... That attitude helps to perceive things... Hope you are already.... I cultivated that attitude long time back... That immensely helped me to understand regardless of who speaks with us... alright ... God knows why I said this... Anticipate you benefit...

Meticulously look at the verse... When God says to eat and drink on the verge of the demise of Dawn then there must have meaning why He instructs us to eat at dawn before morning breaks in... Remember untill white thread clearly visible this period is night... Non but night... And the other end is start of Night. . God used two crucial words UNTIL and TILL..... 
** God clarified sex is halal at night...(so if one take definition of night to be from darkness of dusk to clear white thread of Dawn... Then it is halal during that period)... Did Allah say "it is made lawful for you approaching your wives at Nahar(day)?.. .No... If day and night sex then what is siyam?.. Lol.. Remember the clear difference in Haj day and night sex is forbidden.. ...

** God clarified eating and drinking to be done at night... If at night sex is allowed what is the use of forbidding food and drink...you want to starve and sex at night. ::).. So food is allowed at night... That's common sense.. For sure... Note carefully...
Did God say eat and drink day and night...?  NO... God put restrictions.. Restrictions started with the word UNTIL.... ..IF as claimed by sister Hourya, the process of eating and drinking is throughout (night and day) and there is no restrictions, then why God in the first place should say eat and drink UNTIL white thread.. That's absolutely nonsensical... Why the word Until is at all required for eating and drinking ..

Now let's turn to TILL... IF siyam is throughout (day and night) why word TILL at all required...
God could have used for both UNTIL.. but God knows beyond anyone the knowledge of application of language...
Until is used because beyond that eating and drinking is waste of effort in the context of siyam.. We should stop... No point eating beyond... It's like mandatory statement by using UNTIL...
but for completing or in common language to breakfast God used TILL.. it's not looking mandatory at all.. You breakfast at that time or bit delay no harm.. Coz you already fasted... Delay in time beyond the time is harmless...even you don't eat and drink at breakfast no harm... Just we completed... It is not must we should eat.. Even only a glass of water woukd do... That's optional... But eating and drinking at the dawn beyond the time is waste... And specially at dawn God asks us to eat and drink and not while breakfast... Coz God doesn't want to give us hardship by having to fast without food....so simply those who are not affordable for food and drink at dawn is exempted from fasting.. No fasting in empty stomach.. That's common sense for all.. Isn't it..

Let me know those who claim that Siyam = Meditation for number of days nonstop...
Let me know how you do it?.. I will definitely in sha allah point out your flaws in it according to verses...

In fact words of Allah speaks... It will only speak the truth

Wakas

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2019, 03:18:14 AM »
peace,

Comparing these two parts and IF your classic statement is correct, then we must admit that the Quran contradicts itself!

One conclusion is necessary: either Allah contradicts himself and we twist the meaning of this passage if we are believers (not faithful) avoiding contradiction, OR our understanding of the word Siyam is not the right one.

When making a bold claim such as a potential contradiction in Quran it would be handy if you could clarify where exactly is the contradiction.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2019, 03:52:14 AM »
Sawm is not fast also discussed before here, mentioned by brother wakas

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=221.0

Iyyaka

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2019, 04:00:15 AM »
peace,

When making a bold claim such as a potential contradiction in Quran it would be handy if you could clarify where exactly is the contradiction.
Peace brother,
Here, the text is clear by himself - i just put in evidence the text and the classic interpretation of the word siyam by qoting Jkhan - normally i do not have to explain more. But i will do it by answering Jkhan.

Iyyaka

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2019, 04:42:27 AM »
Peace Dear brother....
Nice to see you back after a while...

First of all nothing is my statement...  Quran has stated and people are here to understand and their understanding of Quran speaks with words...

Accordingly...  My understanding of siyam with thorough application of thought into it is non other but avoiding the consumption of food and drink and avoid sex during Nahar (Day)...
Does it contradict with what is written in Quran?  If you claim so, it is your responsibility to explain how it contradicts rather than just wording; it contradicts... I may contradict but QURAN will never...
Look brother... Keep a very open mind... Forget who I am and the way you consider me as a person and only apply to your thought what I speak and not as a person... That attitude helps to perceive things... Hope you are already.... I cultivated that attitude long time back... That immensely helped me to understand regardless of who speaks with us... alright ... God knows why I said this... Anticipate you benefit...

Meticulously look at the verse... When God says to eat and drink on the verge of the demise of Dawn then there must have meaning why He instructs us to eat at dawn before morning breaks in... Remember untill white thread clearly visible this period is night... Non but night... And the other end is start of Night. . God used two crucial words UNTIL and TILL..... 
** God clarified sex is halal at night...(so if one take definition of night to be from darkness of dusk to clear white thread of Dawn... Then it is halal during that period)... Did Allah say "it is made lawful for you approaching your wives at Nahar(day)?.. .No... If day and night sex then what is siyam?.. Lol.. Remember the clear difference in Haj day and night sex is forbidden.. ...

** God clarified eating and drinking to be done at night... If at night sex is allowed what is the use of forbidding food and drink...you want to starve and sex at night. ::).. So food is allowed at night... That's common sense.. For sure... Note carefully...
Did God say eat and drink day and night...?  NO... God put restrictions.. Restrictions started with the word UNTIL.... ..IF as claimed by sister Hourya, the process of eating and drinking is throughout (night and day) and there is no restrictions, then why God in the first place should say eat and drink UNTIL white thread.. That's absolutely nonsensical... Why the word Until is at all required for eating and drinking ..

Now let's turn to TILL... IF siyam is throughout (day and night) why word TILL at all required...
God could have used for both UNTIL.. but God knows beyond anyone the knowledge of application of language...
Until is used because beyond that eating and drinking is waste of effort in the context of siyam.. We should stop... No point eating beyond... It's like mandatory statement by using UNTIL...
but for completing or in common language to breakfast God used TILL.. it's not looking mandatory at all.. You breakfast at that time or bit delay no harm.. Coz you already fasted... Delay in time beyond the time is harmless...even you don't eat and drink at breakfast no harm... Just we completed... It is not must we should eat.. Even only a glass of water woukd do... That's optional... But eating and drinking at the dawn beyond the time is waste... And specially at dawn God asks us to eat and drink and not while breakfast... Coz God doesn't want to give us hardship by having to fast without food....so simply those who are not affordable for food and drink at dawn is exempted from fasting.. No fasting in empty stomach.. That's common sense for all.. Isn't it..

et me know those who claim that Siyam = Meditation for number of days nonstop...
Let me know how you do it?.. I will definitely in sha allah point out your flaws in it according to verses...


In fact words of Allah speaks... It will only speak the truth
Salam brother,
Thanks

I will not give here my definition of SIYAM coz it needs a big analysis, even if  Allah give the answer directly by the text but we are blinded by our prejudices. I just want to focus on the fact that sawm is not SIYAM even if SAWM can be practice during the time of siyam OTHERWISE Allah is contradict himself and it is unacceptable for a mumin. Finally, I will not discuss AGAIN about the fact that "to fast" is NOT a transitive verb and to translate like this in 2-185 is grammatically incorrect, in english like in arabic.

After this parenthesis, i want to underline that you have reason to make a focus on the words ḥattā/until and ilā/till in 2-187.
ilā (à, vers in french) can be inclusive (not ḥattā) SO it is clear just by using this word that "eat and drink" is from ENTERING the night ḥattā/until the emergence of the dawn.

You said "Meticulously look at the verse" - funny that's what i invited you too..just by the words of Allah not by any personal opinions.
So i am going to take back my example from the Quran :

   "
   Traditionnal statement: SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."

   Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187:
   First part:
   "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread [the] white from the thread [the] black of [the] dawn.
   Second part:
   "thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
   "

Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.

To conclude just by using words of Allah :
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.

A remark : Allah doesn't say "and eat and drink and have sex..". Allah is precise and clear. Sorry but Rafatha doesn't means in the quranic context "having sexual relationship with a woman" but "say obscene and rude remarks" like in 2-197 (look at the context).

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2019, 04:52:48 AM »
Sawm is not fast also discussed before here, mentioned by brother wakas

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=221.0

Peace Sister...
You can only siyam is not fasting.. You are free to remain upon your understanding.. But you have to debate and answer and convince by your debate...

Nevertheless...  If you are claiming that siyam is meditation secluding to Masajid...  We are not to stop it.. You will definitely get the benefit for meditation.. Meditation and magnifying God is definitely worth doing that we have to do everyday if possible...

But you will probably lose the benefit of fasting coz... God says to fast and fasting makes us muttaqun... And fasting is better if you know.. That's what God says..
But even you don't fast you will never be penalized by God.. Coz it is not compulsory in a way to achieve success.. But it is compulsory on believers to be in a status of muttaqun... That's one of the criteria to become muttaqun...

After all fasting is not mandatory thing that will take us to Janna... 23:1-10 and 70:23-34 confirms it.. There no fasting at all... But still successful... But only we lose status...

May Allah guide us to what is right and let not He put us in error..

Note.. Waqas accept or not is not important for me.. Important is you or waqas or anyone says is within Quran and debated to convince.. That's key...