Author Topic: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)  (Read 2724 times)

Cerberus

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2019, 12:37:38 PM »
Fasting and its worth are universal and there is no real ambiguity except when someone is looking at semantics and easy passes.

From Confucius
 "The goal of fasting is inner unity. This means hearing, but not with the ear; hearing, but not with the understanding; hearing with the spirit, with your whole being.  The hearing that is only in the ears is one thing.  The hearing of the understanding is another.  But the hearing of the spirit is not limited to any one faculty, to the ear, or to the mind. Hence it demands the emptiness of all the faculties.  And when the faculties are empty, then the whole being listens. There is then a direct grasp of what is right there before you that can never be heard with the ear or understood with the mind.  Fasting of the heart empties the faculties, frees you from limitation and from preoccupation.  Fasting of the heart begets unity and freedom."

Basically emptying the senses in order to be more aware of your thoughts and actions. Also emptying the senses breaks you out of your animalistic habits, those things you do/eat/engage in  that provide you with your daily dose of self-satisfaction.

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2019, 05:35:09 PM »
Peace All.
The misunderstanding arises from the definitions given by some .
"Sawm" by itself does not mean abstain from talking or abstain from eating and drinking or abstain from anything. It just means Abstain from.
The talking,eating and drinking...etc are given in the verses and the context.
For Ramadan, it is clear it is "Abstain from eating and drinking- Fakuklu Wa Shrabu ....Then Abstain from both until....

For Meriem ,her Sawm was Abstain from "talking to others---Inni Nathartu Li.. Sawmun.,.Falan UKALLIMA Al Yawma Insiya...-
...etc.
My understanding.
GOD bless.
peace.

Peace GL...

I am not quite sure what you say is appropriate for the word siyam.... I strongly feel siyam is not just a mere word which refers to mere abstaining.... No... It's more than that.... This particular word is Specifically meaning a ritual act of fasting for good and for punishment...
It cannot be taken simply as abstaining.. For such there are other words in Arabic.. The below verse manifestly confirm fasting...
2:183 " O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous"

This doesn't  mean Abstinence merely....  The word itself has already the meaning with people of the book... They Knew what is siyam and that's what ordered for people of Quran to continue...  That's why even word like " betray" is used.. That's why I strongly believe Ramadhan cannot be an Arabic month in which to fast... There is no point asking to fast in Arabic month while people of book predominantly Israelites fast already and this book address them as well... God won't ask them and these to fast on different days... That's my understanding...

In Maryam instance... Whether she was fasting or not at that instance is not evident. . But it seems it is a well accepted good ethic for not talking beyond necessity while fasting.. So that was a kind of escape for her from people coz of her situation... So people won't query and argue... She can talk but not necessary... She was not ask to tell that I am not talking by signs... Like zakaria... That's contrasting difference...

Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2019, 03:39:13 AM »
The purpose of siyam is spiritual retreat in the temple (i3tikaf), to magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful (2:185).

Mary has retired from her people. Mary is allowed to drink and eat during her retreat when she practices siyam.
Retreat also includes not speaking or very little like Zacharias.

The different verses are used to explain the meaning of siyam. These are not several variants of siyam.

Do not confuse siyam with what is allowed during the night of the siyam and forbidden during the retreat / i3tikaf.

We are asked to continue (attimmoo) the siyam until night and don't approach approach your women sexually.

There is no interruption of the siyam.

God has not forgotten any details that are not allowed during the retreat / I"tikaf.


Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2019, 07:10:28 AM »
This the link that is the source of the thread : The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)


The best way to study the Reading is to put the verses side by side in order to undestand them.

https://nawaat.org/portail/2012/07/24/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-5-la-grande-utopie-de-la-reforme-et-le-bonus-dukhanus/

When you read eating and drinking until dawn you understand not to drink and not to eat until evening. If you were not intoxicated by your Sheikhales beliefs, you might have been able to consider, according to your verse, that Siyam means retreat in the Masajids and that only the prohibition of "approaching" women is maintained in the day.

Why then does the verse reiterate the prohibition of approaching women if "your deduction" is valid and, if it is just to clarify, why does it not also clarify it for drinking and eating?

Nowhere in the Koran is it said that one should neither drink nor eat. On the other hand, a clear definition of saum exists in the Koran and it is Issa who gives it to his mother:

19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

 19:26    فكلي واشربي وقري عينا فإما ترين من البشر أحدا فقولي إني نذرت للرحمن صوما فلن أكلم اليوم إنسيا

The siyam  is, once again, a spiritual retreat where we do not speak to humans and where we spiritually isolate ourselves from their nonsense. Not to drink or to eat is a handicap in spiritual retreat.

I add if you allow, here are two verses concerning the same divine miracle concerning the prophet Zechariah and his prayer (secret according to 19-3) to have a son :

3:41    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

 3:41    قال رب اجعل لي ءاية قال ءايتك ألا تكلم الناس ثلثة أيام إلا رمزا واذكر ربك كثيرا وسبح بالعشي والإبكر


19:10    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

 19:10    قال رب اجعل لي ءاية قال ءايتك ألا تكلم الناس ثلث ليال سويا

The only way to consider that these two miracles are the same is to consider that Zachariah did not speak already during the day. 3 nights would be equivalent to 3 days.

Zachariah, necessarily, was necessarily already in spiritual retreat during the day.

This is confirmed by the verse:

3:39    So the angels called to him while he was standing, connecting, in the enclosure: "God gives you glad tidings of John, affirming the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright."

3:39    فنادته الملئكة وهو قائم يصلي في المحراب أن الله يبشرك بيحيى مصدقا بكلمة من الله وسيدا وحصورا ونبيا من الصلحين

It was really Ramadan. The fact that it is the angels who speak to him is proof.

Also consider the verses:

2:183    O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.

 2:183    يأيها الذين ءامنوا كتب عليكم الصيام كما كتب على الذين من قبلكم لعلكم تتقون

2:184    A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.

 2:184    أياما معدودت فمن كان منكم مريضا أو على سفر فعدة من أيام أخر وعلى الذين يطيقونه فدية طعام مسكين فمن تطوع خيرا فهو خير له وأن تصوموا خير لكم إن كنتم تعلمون

2:203    And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.

 2:203    واذكروا الله في أيام معدودت فمن تعجل في يومين فلا إثم عليه ومن تأخر فلا إثم عليه لمن اتقى واتقوا الله واعلموا أنكم إليه تحشرون

Comparing 2-183 and 2-203, we see, once again, that siyam is equivalent to invoking God. The marker here is the expression number of days determined (ayyam maadoudat) whose tartil shows that it appears only three times in the quran. The third is irrelevant, in verse 3-24, which speaks of a belief in a purgatory of a few days.

The expression Ayyam Maadudat means a small number of 3 to 10 days. Verse 2-203 expresses the idea that it is not within two days.

Do not eat and drink if you want. But it is not the quran that asks you.

On the other hand, the periods of Hajj and Siyam are ten days and merge:

 89:2    And ten nights.

2:196    And conclude the hadj / debate and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then provide what offering is affordable; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. When you are secure, then whoever enjoys the visit until the hajj/debate, then he shall provide what offering is affordable; but for he who cannot find anything, then the fast of three days during the hajj and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten-this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

Verse 2-196 is clear. The hajj (debater) is exempt from Siyam. On the other hand, one who has gone only as a visitor or merchant (Umra ila el Hajj) can get by with an offering. If he does not have the means, then Siyam is his. This makes him 3 days on the spot, 0 during the trip and 7 on his return. Either the ten requested in all. This is not a calculating exercise to show that God knows how to add 3 and 7.

The Quran clearly defines what the sacred night is. It's the night the angels go down.

97:3    The Night of Decree / alqadr is better than one thousand shahr.

97:4    The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of their Lord to carry out every matter.

This is the relationship between the angels and Ramadan. That's why I said that the announcement made to Zechariah was indeed to the Ramadan Shar.

If the angels spoke to him, it was the night of Qadr.

As luck would have it, we also find the ten days in the verse:

7:142    And We set a meeting for Moses in thirty nights, and We complemented them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was set at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron: "Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters."

Another revelation (necessarily the night of Qadr) with ten clear days. It is also far from being an addition exercise in the Qur'an to show that 30 + 10 = 40.

What is more logical in your opinion, do not eat, do not drink for a month, or honor the Koran the day it was revealed by spending 10 days of meditation or ten days of debate?

Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2019, 09:45:34 AM »
Siyam is dedicated / vowed to God :

19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

Siyam as punishment (3 days or 2 consecutive full moons, or equivalency in siyam for hunting) is decreed to have God's forgiveness and  repentance by invoking it (silently).

I think there is a common root between (sama / sawm / siyam) and (summun / dumb) or it's just a coincidence ?

The expected goal of siyam is to protect our self from / la3allaqum tattaqoon / perhaps you may be righteous / pious


Cerberus

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2019, 01:29:07 PM »
I do not see the practical use of the following attitude:
"Sorry I cannot talk to you right now because I'm connecting with God"

There is no growth and maturing from hiding away in some "spiritual" retreat. People and ourselves are the fuel to our growth.

Fasting is done among people and the best fasting is the one that is kept secret,as quoted in the book of Matthew :
"When you fast, do not be somber like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that your fasting will not be obvious to men, but only to your ''''Father''''', who is unseen. "

It makes sense, the purpose of fasting is to become more conscious and self-controlling. There is no real gain if you do that in a space devoid of any challenges.

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2019, 10:56:22 PM »
Peace…

discernible instructions are given which has no ambiguous meaning… verses 2:183-187 so obvious and God Himself claims that He explains so crystal clearly…  (2:187 “ ..Thus does Allah make clear His Verses to the people …. . … . .”) If God claims he makes His verses clear and simple then there cannot be in the same verse ambiguous meaning… isn’t it…?
Remember my fellow believers, instructions / timing / way to do it / when to complete/ exemption / alternative etc for ‘Siyam’ is in verses 2:183-187 in its comprehensiveness and not in any other verses and the instruction is thoroughly manifest…
Don’t ever complicate with Zackaria and Mariyam….They are not instructions prescribed (kuthiba)
   In Zakaria verses there is nothing mentioned of Siyam… Zakaria was claiming for a SIGN from his Lord after hearing a glad tiding of a Child in his old age… Then God gives him a SIGN ….. That’s not instruction for Siyam…
   In Maryam verses…. She was under a date palm tree while she was delivering the birth of Isa… and whoever spoke to her told her to shake the stem of the tree so that she can get fresh dates and also there was a stream of water… so she has to eat and drink after delivering the child birth and after especially be happy /content (Wa-Qarri Aynan)… and not to fast.. She should be strong and be content with what happened to her and not to get disappointed.. Coz she was discontented when initially she got the message of a child to be born without no man touching her…she implored her death and to get forgotten … So with wa-qarri aynan all her bad feeling removed..

To be content and be happy practically, Then she was further instructed to say as  “She has vowed (Nadzarth)”… This vowing (solemn promise) is totally personal act in life.. optional in my understanding… But Siyam as per 2:183-187 is not optional but compulsory since it has to be done even on alternative days when not done ..etc etc..
So what she Vowed is ‘SAWM’ and remember not the similar word of ‘SIYAM’ though probably same root… What she was instructed is to be dumb (by not talking to people).. The reason behind this is just to save her from unnecessary conversation with people since she is holding a child without marriage… So when she says “I have vowed to Ar Rahman a ‘Sawm’ (not talking being dumb) then she will be relieved by people from further questioning as a respect ..
Now let’s see prescribed Siyam…
Siyam only take place during Nahar (day) and not at night… that’s why God call “during the night of Siyam” about sex and eating and drinking… God never talks of eating and drinking and sex during the Nahar (day) … the word “Haththa” is non other but “Until” … if God instructs to eat and drink using the word “UNTIL” then what is beyond that position is perceivable… isn’t that common sense?
Further God says to “Complete” Siyam to Night… If God orders to COMPLETE then it is when the night falls… No way you can continue beyond that point while God orders to complete… useless…God only orders to perform ‘Siyam’ during Day (Nahar)… that’s crystal clear.. If Siyam is completed at Night then restrictions will be eased ‘UNTIL’ the white thread of Dawn appears clear..… so next day’s Siyam begins till number of days to be completed.. So God points to Fajr and Start of Night be the period eased from restrictions…. So, He allowed eating drinking and sex during this period… Coz Siyam is not a continuous process throughout the day (24 hours)  What zakaria was ordered is Nahar and Lail (day and Night) which is complete three days of sign language…
Night is NO Siyam…but God allows the sex within the context of verses “only during the night”… So.. even one stays in Masajid (sanctuaries) during day inevitably he or she should avoid sex, coz Siyam is only during day..regardless he stays in masajid or home or any place.. no sex during day..Coz it is allowed clearly at “night of Siyam” NOT “during day of Siyam”….  Accordingly this “Akifuna” is not part of Siyam but merely an additional instruction to certain set of people who remains / stay in Masajid (sanctuaries) during the nights of ‘Siyam’… So manifestly allowed act of sex during the night of Siyam becomes restricted based on the place he or she is opted to stay….coz Masajid are places where God’s name is much applauded …. To perform sex in such places is not worthy though sex is not a bad act of human nature.. There could be huge sanctuaries people may be resting / staying to magnify God… example where Haj took place during the time of Muhamed… Why God RESTRICTED SEX while performing HAJ… coz Haj is performed in Restricted sanctuary (masjid Haram)… same rule apply at any time any Masajid (sanctuaries) …No sex in them.. though place could be even open huge areas of land, but if it is a sanctuary then no sex..

As well other occurrences of ‘Siyam’ in quran doesn’t comply with the meaning as “Secluding and meditating for God avoiding talking with other”… specially occurrences of siyam for penalizing for an act… such as two consecutive shahrain of siyam which is penalizing for an act…. By force asking to meditate in seclusion and avoiding talking… that’s bizarre..punishment to meditate? That’s nonsensical…but punishment of depriving food and drink and sex for consecutive shahrain may have meaning… God knows best..

Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2019, 01:03:00 AM »
Peace,

We can not consider that part of the verses. God explains, repeats and brings complementary information in each verse, as for salat / zakkat.


Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2019, 03:14:09 AM »
Focus only on what is said in the verse:

continue / complete  siyam,

what are we doing during siyam : you are devoted in the temples

and do not approach women sexually  while you are devoted in the temples.

nothing to add.

Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2019, 03:46:48 PM »
Another verse :

7:31    O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.