Author Topic: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)  (Read 3131 times)

Houriya

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The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« on: December 03, 2019, 01:46:16 AM »
Peace,

After reading the articles of this site in French that I found interesting: https://nawaat.org/portail/author/dukhani/

I wonder about the definition of siyam and have severl questions about the verse 2:187

God explains what is allowed during the night and what we should not do during our spiritual retreat in almasajid.


Is the instructions “until the white thread is distinct from  the black thread of dawn", concerns both “to approach your women sexually » and eat and drink ?

Is this part of the verse «  God knew that you used to betray your souls » concerns both “to approach your women sexually »  and eat and drink ?

During the spiritual retreat in almasajid, why god did not specify both do not approach them (your women sexually) and don’t eat and drink ?

2:187    It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam / fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knew that you used to betray your souls, so He has redeemed you, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete alssiyama / the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people that they may be righteous.

The spiritual retreat during siyam serves to receive divine guidance as explained in the following verse “and magnify God for what He has guided you to »


2:185    Shahr ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed alshshahra shall yasumhu / fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

I am convinced of the interest of fasting for health. I do not think that fasting is the purpose of siyam
Spiritual retreat for a fixed number of days is crucial to receive guidance, to connect to God.

Thank you for your debate on this topic


Mazhar

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2019, 02:28:14 AM »

أُحِلَّ لَـكُـمْ لَيْلَةَ ٱلصِّيَامِ ٱلرَّفَثُ إِلَـىٰ نِسَآئِكُـمْۚ

Sexually inciting preliminary activities directed towards your wives were permissible during the night of the Fasting for you people.

اپنی بیویوں کے ساتھ جنسی خواہشات ابھارنے والے عوامل  رمضان کی راتوں میں تم لوگوں کے لئے(تمہارے گمان کے برعکس)حلال تھے۔

Root: ر ف ث

هُنَّ لِبَاسٚ لَّـكُـمْ وَأَنتُـمْ لِبَاسٚ لَّـهُنَّۗ

They (respective) wives are apparel for you people and you are apparel for them.

وہ(بیویاں)تم لوگوں(خاوندوں)کے لئے لباس ہیں،اور تم(خاوند)ان کے لئے لباس ہو۔

عَلِمَ ٱللَّهُ أَنَّكُـمْ كُنتُـمْ تَخْتانُونَ أَنفُسَكُـمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُـمْ وَعَفَا عَنكُـمْۖ

Allah the Exalted has known-observed that by self imposed restriction you people diligently kept lessening-suppressing the rights of your own selves. Thereby, He the Exalted has paid attention upon you to move you out of self imposed restrictions, and has since removed erroneous perception away from you.

اللہ تعالیٰ نے جان لیا ہے کہ تم لوگ سخت کوشش سے اپنے آپ کو روک کرخود اپنے ساتھ حق تلافی کرتے رہے ہو،اس لئے ان جناب نے تم پر توجہ فرما کر اس خود ساختہ پابندی کی وضاحت کر دی ہے۔اور اس گمان کو تم سے دور کر دیا ہے۔

Root: خ و ن

فَٱلْـٔ​َـٟنَ بَٟشِـرُوهُنَّ وَٱبْتَغُوا۟ مَا كَتَبَ ٱللَّهُ لَـكُـمْۚ

Therefore, after this clarification henceforth undertake mutual-consented intercourse with them in the nights of fasting and you people seek its result [not son or daughter but] that which Allah the Exalted has written for you people.

اس لئے اس نکتے کی وضاحت ہو جانے پر اب جاؤ ان (اپنی بیوی)سے باہمی خواہش سے مباشرت کرو اور اس کی خواہش و جستجو کرو جو اللہ تعالیٰ نے تمہارے لئے لکھ دیا ہوا ہے۔

وَكُلُوا۟ وَٱشْرَبُوا۟ حَـتَّىٰ يَتَبَيَّـنَ لَـكُـمُ ٱلْخَيْطُ ٱلۡأَبْيَضُ مِنَ ٱلْخَيْطِ ٱلۡأَسْوَدِ مِنَ ٱلْفَجْرِۖ

And you people eat and drink during the night till the horizontal white line renders itself for you people distinguishable emerging from unfolding of the day - daybreak—delineated from the horizontal line-layer of black-obscure colour —

اور رات کے دوران کھاتے پیتے رہو اس لمحے تک جب  متوازی سفید  لکیر اپنے آپ کو تم لوگوں کے لئے کالی لکیر سے متمیز اور عیاں کر دے (صبح صادق،سحر کے بعد)، یہ وقت ا س رات کی فجر(پو پھوٹنے،طلوع روشنی)سے قبل ہے۔

Root: خ ى ط

ثُـمَّ أَتِمُّوا۟ ٱلصِّيَامَ إِلَـى ٱلَّيْلِۚ

Thereafter, you are directed to complete the fast spatio-temporally towards the setting in of night -Sun set: beginning of a new lunar day.

بعد ازاں تم لوگ روزوں (اجتناب  جنسی ،کھاناپینا)کو مکمل کرو رات کی جانب(نئے قمری دن کی جانب)۔

وَلَا تُبَٟشِـرُوهُنَّ وَأَنتُـمْ عَٟكِفُونَ فِـى ٱلْمَسَٟجِدِۗ

Take note; you people should not establish intimate mutually consented matrimonial contact-intercourse on visiting them (respective wives) during the currency of the period you are devotee in reclusion inside the Mosques.

رمضان کی راتوں میں ایک پابندی ہے،  جب تم لوگ مسجدوں میں اعتکاف میں ہو تو گھر آنے پر تمہیں اپنی بیویوں سے مباشرت نہیں کرنا چاہئے۔

تِلْكَ حُدُودُ ٱللَّهِ فَلَا تَقْرَبُوهَاۗ

These—afore-stated are the limits-restraints-demarcations prescribed by Allah the Exalted; Therefore, you people should not approach their boundaries [overstep/transgress-2:229].

یہ بیان کردہ اللہ تعالیٰ کی مقرر کردہ حدود ہیں اس لئے تم لوگوں کو چاہئے کہ ان سے تجاوز کرنے کے خواہشمند مت بنو۔

كَذَٟلِكَ يُبَيِّـنُ ٱللَّهُ ءَايَٟتِهِۦ لِلنَّاسِ

This is how Allah the Exalted explicitly explicates His Aa'ya'at: Verbal  Passages of Qur’ān rendering each point-concept-situation distinctly isolated and crystal clear for the people—

اس تقابلی انداز میں اللہ تعالیٰ اپنی آیات کو لوگوں کے فہم کے لئے متمیز اور واضح فرما دیتے ہیں۔

لَعَلَّـهُـمْ يَتَّقُونَ .2:187١٨٧

So that they might endeavour to protect their selves. [2:187]

اس کا مقصد یہ ہے کہ وہ  اپنے آپ کو محفوظ و مامون بنا سکیں(مقررہ حدود کے اندر   رہ کر)

jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2019, 02:34:57 AM »
Peace,


Is the instructions “until the white thread is distinct from  the black thread of dawn", concerns both “to approach your women sexually » and eat and drink ?


Yes it is… any other option do you get dear?  You are free from all restrictions while you don’t fast… fasting is from clear white thread of dawn until night… Only exception is to those who remain/stay in Masajid (for me masajid is sanctuary/man made or natural) while you don’t fast… So no sex in Masajid but same sex is allowed any place other than Masajid…

Peace,


Is this part of the verse «  God knew that you used to betray your souls » concerns both “to approach your women sexually »  and eat and drink ?




Yes it is absolutely part of the verse…. Notice clearly… this is the first time the verse/s are revealed in arabic for the people of Mohamed to fast…. But God, claiming that “You used to betray” as if they were fasting even before the verses are revealed for fasting…That’s impossible….  That’s coz God talking to the people of the book.. This same quran addresses to the people of Israel as well.. There were people who were fasting even before the arabic quran instructs to do so… Thus those people of the book would have been betraying themselves by approaching sexually which is not wrong but thinking so… So God clarifies it in quran that it is allowed to do sex during the night of fasting… That clarified for those who fast first time and to those who were fasting before that..

Peace,


During the spiritual retreat in almasajid, why god did not specify both do not approach them (your women sexually) and don’t eat and drink ?



No need to repeat Eat & Drink while clearly stated to stop eat and drink with white thread appearance / advent at the dawn… and then explains to complete the fast (not eating / drinking / no sex) until night

Wakas

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2019, 02:38:31 AM »

From: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html

2:187 Lawful for you nights (of) the abstinence is sexual approach* to your women, they are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray/deceive yourselves so He turned towards you and He forgave you; so now approach** them and seek what God has decreed/written for you. And eat and drink until becomes distinct the white thread from the black thread, of dawn. Then you shall complete the abstinence until the night, and do not approach** them while you are devoting/cleaving in the maSaJiD. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous/God-concious.
*Arabic: RaFaTh (root: Ra-Fa-Tha)
**Arabic: BaShiR (root: Ba-Shin-Ra)

IF one takes masajid=mosques then if women were not allowed in them, it would make this statement illogical, thus clearly implying women could be present in the mosques. It also implies men and women are unlikely to be segregated, as they could approach one another, i.e. interact.
    Who in their right mind would approach their wife in a sexual manner in a public Mosque? Was this such a temptation or common practice that AQ had to tell them not to do it? According to history/tradition mosques in those early days were very basic or simply courtyards thus unlikely to have multiple rooms so it seems even more odd to suggest such a thing taking place in a Mosque. This traditional understanding verges on the nonsensical.
    IF masajids=mosques, why even mention mosques, when there is much greater chance of sexual temptation in the homes during abstinence? The traditional commentators attempt an explanation for this, e.g Jalalayn/Ibn Kathir say this is referring to 'itikaf' (spiritual retreat in the mosque) when believers would leave the mosque for sex then return, when they are meant to reside at the mosque for a certain number of days. This is a complete insertion of course, and hardly "clear" as it implies at the end of the verse, and the obvious error as it says "...WHILE YOU are devoting/cleaving IN the masajid" not when one leaves them. So, it would seem they interpret it as "...while you are staying in the masajid (for itikaf)...".
    If it did mean 'itikaf' then this is not explained elsewhere in AQ, e.g. how many days, what does it involve, why, is it obligatory, examples of anyone actually doing it etc. If we are relying upon AQ only for our understanding of this verse, then 'itikaf' must be rejected outright. The consequence of this however, is that it renders the understanding of masajid=mosques illogical, or at least very unusual.
    Another explanation put forth for this verse is that sexual approach to your women is permitted in the nights of the abstinence but not when one is staying in the mosques, e.g. The Sacred Mosque (in Mecca). Not for "itikaf" per se but simply a spiritual/devotional retreat there, e.g. travellers to The Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) may have come from afar and thus set up tents there, and this verse is referring to them (a verse cited to support this notion of "residency/staying" is 22:25). Not that I necessarily agree with this explanation, but it is at least more plausible than the Traditional explanation, which advocates a specific practice of "itikaf" rather than an undefined one. It is debatable whether the word "akif" means "reside/stay" according to Quran usage, but in any case people staying-over in the mosque seems odd/impractical if one takes "tawaf" as "circumambulation" for example, and the "hadiy" (gifts/offerings) are also to be taken to such a venue. It could make "circumambulation" rather awkward, and if many residents/gifts/animals, perhaps impossible.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Houriya

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2019, 04:55:05 AM »
The definition of siyam in this verse :


19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence / sawman for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"


19:10    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

3:41    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Mary and Zachariah refrained from speaking which makes sense when one is retired.

"It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam".

Does the night include the day as for  Zachariah?

The restriction "until the white thread is distinct from  the black thread of dawn" concern only to approach your women sexually. That makes sense when one is in retreat in the masjid.

The verse 2:185 explains the start of siyam and why it's so important, to magnify God for what He has guided you to.






jkhan

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2019, 08:24:40 AM »
The definition of siyam in this verse :


19:26    "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence / sawman for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"


19:10    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

3:41    He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Mary and Zachariah refrained from speaking which makes sense when one is retired.

"It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam".

Does the night include the day as for  Zachariah?

The restriction "until the white thread is distinct from  the black thread of dawn" concern only to approach your women sexually. That makes sense when one is in retreat in the masjid.

The verse 2:185 explains the start of siyam and why it's so important, to magnify God for what He has guided you to.

I seem to understand you that you are trying to say or believe that siyam could probably mean abstinence from talking to others by giving references of the verses.. ...  I have seen and heard people claim so...  That's total misunderstanding.... They can't convince...

If that interpretation for siyam is correct then explain me Sister Houriya what the below verses talking about fasting.... Are these abstinence from talking as well.. What kind of super easy punishment they are...

4:92 " ...... ...... And whoever does not find then, a fast for two months consecutively ..... . .. "

Or verse 2:196 or 5:95

58:4 "And he who does not find [a slave] - then a fast for two months consecutively before they touch one another; and he who is unable - then the feeding of sixty poor persons......."

Mohammed.

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2019, 09:02:04 AM »
salaam Wakas,

Considering masjid = time of SJD/acknowledgement

But from its(SJD) occurrences in the Qur’an, we can understand
-the purpose/importance of sujud, when it is done & one’s (mental/spiritual) state when he is in SJD/acknowledgement.
(Some examples, 12:100, 15:29, 17:107 etc.)

Then, what is the logic of saying 'do not approach women sexually at the time of SJD/acknowledgement' i.e. while a believer is in sujud?
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

good logic

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2019, 09:19:06 AM »
Peace All.
The misunderstanding arises from the definitions given by some .
"Sawm" by itself does not mean abstain from talking or abstain from eating and drinking or abstain from anything. It just means Abstain from.
The talking,eating and drinking...etc are given in the verses and the context.
For Ramadan, it is clear it is "Abstain from eating and drinking- Fakuklu Wa Shrabu ....Then Abstain from both until....

For Meriem ,her Sawm was Abstain from "talking to others---Inni Nathartu Li.. Sawmun.,.Falan UKALLIMA Al Yawma Insiya...-
...etc.
My understanding.
GOD bless.
peace.
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good logic

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2019, 09:26:44 AM »
In verses where it does not specify what to Abstain from, the context will give an indication. In most , like Hajj and the case of repentance, the logical one is "Abstain from food".
My view.
GOD bless.
Peace.
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Mazhar

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Re: The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2019, 11:59:11 AM »
Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:

(مقاييس اللغة)
الصاد والواو والميم أصلٌ يدلُّ على إِمساكٍ وركودٍ في مكان. من ذلك صَوم الصَّائم

That it leads to the perception of abstinence, and stasis - stagnancy at home.

(لسان العرب)
الصَّوْمُ: تَرْكُ الطعامِ والشَّرابِ والنِّكاحِ والكلامِ

Fasting is the act and state of abstinence of activity relating to food intake and genitalia and speech.