Author Topic: Stuck on these verses clarification  (Read 1518 times)

jkhan

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Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2019, 04:48:07 PM »
Some time try to skim some grammar book. Feminine Ha is used to refer broken plural objects since then they are grammatically treated singular.

is used 244 times in Ayahs. At the very first place it refers feminine broken plural noun.

http://haqeeqat.pk/236.FeeHa.htm

Easy to see its use in all ayahs use search engine by F-3 on this text page of Full Qur'an on my website

http://haqeeqat.pk/quran.html

Let's hope as you say feeha is plural as well... But this feeha is feminine plural you say... But those four words are not merely feminine.... So is it possible to use feeHa for both (feminine and masculine) ...

jkhan

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Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2019, 05:02:21 PM »
Peace,

I have added more information for reflection in my post https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg427316#msg427316
I hope that highlighting the structure of this passage and the inter-connected elements will help your reflection.

Sorry not to answer directly and much longer (top long here - even if colour and structure has "obvious" meaning) but otherwise we must first ask the question: what is the relationship between the ROOT of these words and the proposed STANDARD translations ?
It is "clearly" for me a lexical entry...
Thank you I will read and try to grasp what I grasp...
Meanwhile.... The repelling from homes and demolishing all religions places have no connection I guess... Unless we go for some other meaning other monasteries etc...
In verse 41 it speaks of entrusting power... And make establish salat.and Zakath ... If Salat here prayer and Zakath (giving)  I don't think they have any right to do so being rulers... That doesn't make sense... If attempting to establish Morals and thus trying to bringforth purification to society is much meaningful.... They should do that as leaders specially as believjng leaders....
That's why I don't prefer those four words in a way to be translated as religious places... If they corrupt and demolish the morals and people's trading and mainly sanctuaries which are inevitable those days for various imperative purposes... So God check those do such act by some others so  morals or ethics of a nation prevails.....

jkhan

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Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2019, 09:28:06 PM »
Some time try to skim some grammar book. Feminine Ha is used to refer broken plural objects since then they are grammatically treated singular.

is used 244 times in Ayahs. At the very first place it refers feminine broken plural noun.

http://haqeeqat.pk/236.FeeHa.htm

Easy to see its use in all ayahs use search engine by F-3 on this text page of Full Qur'an on my website

http://haqeeqat.pk/quran.html

Peace brother Mazhar...

I checked most of those Fee-Ha verses but i only see quran refers to some feminine singular matter and referring it that feminine matter and uses Fee-Ha... i checked out of those 244 many.. still i could not find a broken plural for Fee-Ha.... the moment i write this thread also i am checking out those 244 but still not... can you bring specifically five verses which refers plural using Fee-HA....
if in case all Fee-Ha refers feminine singular in entire quran, then we have to look seriously the verse 22:40 what it refers as fee-Ha.... i am checking all 244 verses to be sure.. give me some time...

Mazhar

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Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2019, 11:34:18 PM »
Peace brother Mazhar...

I checked most of those Fee-Ha verses but i only see quran refers to some feminine singular matter and referring it that feminine matter and uses Fee-Ha... i checked out of those 244 many.. still i could not find a broken plural for Fee-Ha.... the moment i write this thread also i am checking out those 244 but still not... can you bring specifically five verses which refers plural using Fee-HA....
if in case all Fee-Ha refers feminine singular in entire quran, then we have to look seriously the verse 22:40 what it refers as fee-Ha.... i am checking all 244 verses to be sure.. give me some time...

Something seems gone wrong with you. At the very first use it is for plural.


أَنَّ لَـهُـمْ جَنَّٟتٛ تَجْرِى مِن تَحْتِـهَا ٱلۡأََنْـهَٟرُۖ

That gardens are in wait- prepared- promised for them where streams flow on lower side by her.

کہ اُن کیلئے ایسے باغات منتظر ہیں جن کے پائیں نہریں بہتی ہیں۔

كُلَّمَا رُزِقُوا۟ مِنْـهَا مِن ثَمَـرَةٛ رِّزْقٙاۙ

-- Every time they were fed variety of fruit from them (gardens) as sustenance —

جب جب اُن باغات کے پھلوں میں سے کھانے کوانہیں رزق دیا جائے گا

قَالُوا۟ هَـٟذَا ٱلَّذِى رُزِقْنَا مِن قَبْلُ؜ۖ

They said: "This fruit is alike which was given to us as sustenance foretimes--
تو کہیں گے کہ یہ وہ رزق ہے جو ہمیں پہلے مل چکا ہے۔

وَأُتُوا۟ بِـهِۦ مُتَشَٟبِـهٙاۖ

And they were given things in resemblance of their perceptions --.

اور اُس (دنیا میں دیئے رزق)سے مشابہت رکھنے والا رزق دیا جائے گا۔

وَلَـهُـمْ فِيـهَآ أَزْوَٟجٚ مُّطَهَّرَةٚۖ

And that spouses of purified- clean heart as companions-mates are assured for them therein.

اوراُن( باغات) میں ان کیلئے ازواج مطھرۃ؍پاکیزہ تصورات کے حامل ازدواجی ساتھی ہوں گے۔

وَهُـمْ فِيـهَا خَٟلِدُونَ.2:25٢٥

And they will abide therein permanently. [2:25]

(اوریہ لوگ ان(باغات)میں ہمیشہ رہائش پذیررہیں گے۔ (البقرۃ۔۲۵



Iyyaka

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Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2019, 11:40:07 PM »
Thank you I will read and try to grasp what I grasp...
Meanwhile.... The repelling from homes and demolishing all religions places have no connection I guess... Unless we go for some other meaning other monasteries etc...
In verse 41 it speaks of entrusting power... And make establish salat.and Zakath ... If Salat here prayer and Zakath (giving)  I don't think they have any right to do so being rulers... That doesn't make sense... If attempting to establish Morals and thus trying to bringforth purification to society is much meaningful.... They should do that as leaders specially as believjng leaders....
That's why I don't prefer those four words in a way to be translated as religious places... If they corrupt and demolish the morals and people's trading and mainly sanctuaries which are inevitable those days for various imperative purposes... So God check those do such act by some others so  morals or ethics of a nation prevails.....
Sorry but not just "read" but concentrate - Your comment show that you don't really take time to analyse my post and don't make your" preference" dictate your comprehension but ONLY Allah's signs.

In the verse 41 yes ALL the verses are in the past form and the criticism is about the notables of quraych - so using modern name places of worship for these 4 words is doing ANACHRONISM (mix different times...) [we are agree with that]

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

jkhan

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Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2019, 12:50:48 AM »
Something seems gone wrong with you. At the very first use it is for plural.


أَنَّ لَـهُـمْ جَنَّٟتٛ تَجْرِى مِن تَحْتِـهَا ٱلۡأََنْـهَٟرُۖ

That gardens are in wait- prepared- promised for them where streams flow on lower side by her.

کہ اُن کیلئے ایسے باغات منتظر ہیں جن کے پائیں نہریں بہتی ہیں۔

كُلَّمَا رُزِقُوا۟ مِنْـهَا مِن ثَمَـرَةٛ رِّزْقٙاۙ

-- Every time they were fed variety of fruit from them (gardens) as sustenance —

جب جب اُن باغات کے پھلوں میں سے کھانے کوانہیں رزق دیا جائے گا

قَالُوا۟ هَـٟذَا ٱلَّذِى رُزِقْنَا مِن قَبْلُ؜ۖ

They said: "This fruit is alike which was given to us as sustenance foretimes--
تو کہیں گے کہ یہ وہ رزق ہے جو ہمیں پہلے مل چکا ہے۔

وَأُتُوا۟ بِـهِۦ مُتَشَٟبِـهٙاۖ

And they were given things in resemblance of their perceptions --.

اور اُس (دنیا میں دیئے رزق)سے مشابہت رکھنے والا رزق دیا جائے گا۔

وَلَـهُـمْ فِيـهَآ أَزْوَٟجٚ مُّطَهَّرَةٚۖ

And that spouses of purified- clean heart as companions-mates are assured for them therein.

اوراُن( باغات) میں ان کیلئے ازواج مطھرۃ؍پاکیزہ تصورات کے حامل ازدواجی ساتھی ہوں گے۔

وَهُـمْ فِيـهَا خَٟلِدُونَ.2:25٢٥

And they will abide therein permanently. [2:25]

(اوریہ لوگ ان(باغات)میں ہمیشہ رہائش پذیررہیں گے۔ (البقرۃ۔۲۵

Really confused brother not being able to get a clear picture… you know I have no knowledge of this arabic grammar… but I won’t fail to verify though…. Let’s see I may get some assistance..
The above verse Fee-Ha refers to Janna (feminine)… I know the Janna mentioned is plural…. But what God refers is to Janna…. Some verses I have seen while checking not at all referred to Hell but explanation is about Hell so, God used Fee-Ha to refer Hell without the word being mentioned in quran… cannot remember the verse no...  if Fee-Ha used then it has to be feminine only… isn’t it? Then why not use Fee-Hi…
For example 2:2… referring the Book (masculine) and used no doubt IN IT (Fee-Hi) addressing the book.
Can you bring one couple of verses which refers to Singular Masculine object but used as Fee-HA…
Is this fee-HA is something like this… Could be used for :
•   Singular Feminine (verified)
•   Plural Feminine (verified)
•   Singular Masculine
•   Plural Masculine
•   Singular Feminine and masculine
•   Plural Feminine and Masculine

please cooperate for clarificaiton...

jkhan

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Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2019, 01:01:42 AM »
Sorry but not just "read" but concentrate - Your comment show that you don't really take time to analyse my post and don't make your" preference" dictate your comprehension but ONLY Allah's signs.

In the verse 41 yes ALL the verses are in the past form and the criticism is about the notables of quraych - so using modern name places of worship for these 4 words is doing ANACHRONISM (mix different times...) [we are agree with that]

Peace

Yes... brother.. concentrate is the right word i guess.. but i said read and try to grasp... hope you thought only reading... but honestly i am still stuck... not getting what these three verses in fact up to and what those four words is really are .. Why all of a sudden Salawat becomes synagogues .... If what Mazhar says is right about Fee-Ha then conventional translations may work.... thank you again...I wish i get better picture of these asap...

jkhan

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Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2019, 01:40:37 AM »
Dear Brother Mazhar

is this rule only applicable with Fee-HA or generally with 'Ha' (posseive pronoun) itself... coz.. when you read the verse you presented it has words like 'Thahthi-HA' and 'Min-HA' which refers to Janna... but these 'Ha' usually singular feminine.. right... but in the verse Janna is plural and these two 'HA' are pointing to Janna in singular form...

pls any expert specially in grammar Arabic may cooperate with kindness for making things in black and white....

Mazhar

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Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2019, 03:01:39 AM »
Dear Brother Mazhar

is this rule only applicable with Fee-HA or generally with 'Ha' (posseive pronoun) itself... coz.. when you read the verse you presented it has words like 'Thahthi-HA' and 'Min-HA' which refers to Janna... but these 'Ha' usually singular feminine.. right... but in the verse Janna is plural and these two 'HA' are pointing to Janna in singular form...

pls any expert specially in grammar Arabic may cooperate with kindness for making things in black and white....

Perhaps you are confusing two different pronouns.
Prepositional Phrase. Object pronoun is Third person, singular, masculine refers to a singular masculine antecedent.

Prepositional Phrase. Object Pronoun third person, singular, feminine referent for singular feminine antecedent. It will be used also when the antecedent is broken plural feminine objects; it is so because feminine broken plural is grammatically singular.

Iyyaka

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Re: Stuck on these verses clarification
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2019, 04:27:19 AM »
Yes... brother.. concentrate is the right word i guess.. but i said read and try to grasp... hope you thought only reading... but honestly i am still stuck... not getting what these three verses in fact up to and what those four words is really are .. Why all of a sudden Salawat becomes synagogues .... If what Mazhar says is right about Fee-Ha then conventional translations may work.... thank you again...I wish i get better picture of these asap...
Salam,
For Fiha already talk about here (and Mazhar give u answer previously) https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610831.0
and Fiha refers to masjids (we have to respect the order of words made by Allah)

"sudden Salawat becomes synagogues"
=> Check the use of this form in all the quran and Allah will give u the answer - the rest is from human historical
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)