Author Topic: Grammatical question - reference of the word "fīhā" in 22-40 ?  (Read 216 times)

Iyyaka

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Grammatical question - reference of the word "fīhā" in 22-40 ?
« on: November 04, 2019, 12:18:25 PM »
Salam,

A question about the translation of verse 22:40 and the grammatical function of the word "fīhā": (Below Mazhar translation which corresponds to almost all translations)

لَّـهُدِّمَتْ صَوَٟمِعُ وَبِيَعٚ وَصَلَوَٟتٚ وَمَسَٟجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيـهَا ٱسمُ ٱللَّهِ كَثِيـرٙاۗ
Certainly monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques would have been demolished where (fīhā?) the name of Allah is mentioned quite often.

   fī-hā = P - preposition + PRON - 3rd person feminine singular object pronoun

Can you explain to me what the feminine pronoun is referring to ?
If this refers to all these religious buildings then why the singular feminine and not the plural ?

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Mazhar

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Re: Grammatical question - reference of the word "fīhā" in 22-40 ?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2019, 02:03:54 PM »
Salam,

A question about the translation of verse 22:40 and the grammatical function of the word "fīhā": (Below Mazhar translation which corresponds to almost all translations)

لَّـهُدِّمَتْ صَوَٟمِعُ وَبِيَعٚ وَصَلَوَٟتٚ وَمَسَٟجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيـهَا ٱسمُ ٱللَّهِ كَثِيـرٙاۗ
Certainly monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques would have been demolished where (fīhā?) the name of Allah is mentioned quite often.

   fī-hā = P - preposition + PRON - 3rd person feminine singular object pronoun

Can you explain to me what the feminine pronoun is referring to ?
If this refers to all these religious buildings then why the singular feminine and not the plural ?

Peace

This pronoun also refers plural inanimate objects; earlier mentioned are broken plurals; grammatically feminine singular as well plural. 

Mazhar

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Re: Grammatical question - reference of the word "fīhā" in 22-40 ?
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2019, 02:17:12 PM »
Salam,

A question about the translation of verse 22:40 and the grammatical function of the word "fīhā": (Below Mazhar translation which corresponds to almost all translations)

لَّـهُدِّمَتْ صَوَٟمِعُ وَبِيَعٚ وَصَلَوَٟتٚ وَمَسَٟجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيـهَا ٱسمُ ٱللَّهِ كَثِيـرٙاۗ
Certainly monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques would have been demolished where (fīhā?) the name of Allah is mentioned quite often.

   fī-hā = P - preposition + PRON - 3rd person feminine singular object pronoun

Can you explain to me what the feminine pronoun is referring to ?
If this refers to all these religious buildings then why the singular feminine and not the plural ?

Peace

George Sale: Who have been turned out of their habitations injuriously, and for no other reason than because they say, our Lord is God. And if God did not repel the violence of some men by others, verily monasteries, and churches, and synagogues, and the temples of the Moslems, wherein the name of God is frequently commemorated, would be utterly demolished. And God will certainly assist him who shall be on his side: For God is strong and mighty.

Monotheist: The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said: "Our Lord is God!" And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and contact prayers, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.

Do you think bold is a sentence in English grammar?

Mazhar

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Re: Grammatical question - reference of the word "fīhā" in 22-40 ?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2019, 02:40:40 PM »
ٱلَّذِينَ أُخْرِجُوا۟ مِن دِيَٟرِهِـم بِغَيْـرِ حَقّٛ إِلَّآ أَن يَقُولُوا۟ رَبُّنَا ٱللَّهُۗ

Permission has been granted to fight back to those who were forced to get out of their city without any justification except the reason that they pronounced, "Our Sustainer Lord is Allah".

وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ ٱللَّهِ ٱلنَّاسَ بَعْضَهُـم بِبَعْضٛ

Realize it; had Allah the Exalted were not repelling people, a set of people by some others —

لَّـهُدِّمَتْ صَوَٟمِعُ وَبِيَعٚ وَصَلَوَٟتٚ وَمَسَٟجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيـهَا ٱسمُ ٱللَّهِ كَثِيـرٙاۗ

Certainly monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques would have been demolished where the name of Allah is mentioned quite often.

وَلَيَنصُرَنَّ ٱللَّهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُۥۗ

And certainly Allah the Exalted will in future also help the one who helps Him.

إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَقَوِىٌّ عَزِيزٌ .22:40٤٠

It is true that Allah the Exalted is certainly the Almighty Dominant. [22:40]

Your mentioning of my translation has helped me detect a considerable translation loss in bold sentence. Try detecting loss and help rephrasing the sentence to minimize the translation loss.

Hints: Predicate of Subject دَفْعُ is elided. 2. It is verbal noun used instead of a verb or Active participle, though object ٱلنَّاسَ is mentioned.

Earlier I had thought my bold sentence does show that mentioned action is taken as an established practice whenever need arises. Pl help.

Iyyaka

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Re: Grammatical question - reference of the word "fīhā" in 22-40 ?
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2019, 02:48:53 PM »
This pronoun also refers plural inanimate objects; earlier mentioned are broken plurals; grammatically feminine singular as well plural.
Fine.

The names are divided into two categories: the reason-endowed beings and the non reason-endowed beings. The names for reason-endowed beings have a plural form that can be regular or irregular but remains ordinary. On the other hand, the names of non-reason-endowed beings have a plural form that has the characteristics of the feminine singular despite their sense of masculine plural. This transformation also applies to the pronouns and adjectives of the word concerned.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Mazhar

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Re: Grammatical question - reference of the word "fīhā" in 22-40 ?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2019, 02:57:07 PM »
Fine.

The names are divided into two categories: the reason-endowed beings and the non reason-endowed beings. The names for reason-endowed beings have a plural form that can be regular or irregular but remains ordinary. On the other hand, the names of non-reason-endowed beings have a plural form that has the characteristics of the feminine singular despite their sense of masculine plural. This transformation also applies to the pronouns and adjectives of the word concerned.

Simplify it for those who are not familiar with broken plurals of Arabic.

Iyyaka

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Re: Grammatical question - reference of the word "fīhā" in 22-40 ?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2019, 03:07:37 PM »
ٱلَّذِينَ أُخْرِجُوا۟ مِن دِيَٟرِهِـم بِغَيْـرِ حَقّٛ إِلَّآ أَن يَقُولُوا۟ رَبُّنَا ٱللَّهُۗ

Permission has been granted to fight back to those who were forced to get out of their city without any justification except the reason that they pronounced, "Our Sustainer Lord is Allah".

وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ ٱللَّهِ ٱلنَّاسَ بَعْضَهُـم بِبَعْضٛ

Realize it; had Allah the Exalted were not repelling people, a set of people by some others —

لَّـهُدِّمَتْ صَوَٟمِعُ وَبِيَعٚ وَصَلَوَٟتٚ وَمَسَٟجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيـهَا ٱسمُ ٱللَّهِ كَثِيـرٙاۗ

Certainly monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques would have been demolished where the name of Allah is mentioned quite often.

وَلَيَنصُرَنَّ ٱللَّهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُۥۗ

And certainly Allah the Exalted will in future also help the one who helps Him.

إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَقَوِىٌّ عَزِيزٌ .22:40٤٠

It is true that Allah the Exalted is certainly the Almighty Dominant. [22:40]

Your mentioning of my translation has helped me detect a considerable translation loss in bold sentence. Try detecting loss and help rephrasing the sentence to minimize the translation loss.

Hints: Predicate of Subject دَفْعُ is elided. 2. It is verbal noun used instead of a verb or Active participle, though object ٱلنَّاسَ is mentioned.

Earlier I had thought my bold sentence does show that mentioned action is taken as an established practice whenever need arises. Pl help.
I think your mistake came to translate by a past tense..

The infinitive (verbal noun here as infinitive - It is the substantive that serves to designate the action) is an unconjugated form of the verb, that is to say, a form of the verb that bears no marks of time, number, or person.

So my proposition of translation :
If Allah does not do the act to repel some people by others..
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Mazhar

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Re: Grammatical question - reference of the word "fīhā" in 22-40 ?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2019, 12:04:05 AM »
I think your mistake came to translate by a past tense..

The infinitive (verbal noun here as infinitive - It is the substantive that serves to designate the action) is an unconjugated form of the verb, that is to say, a form of the verb that bears no marks of time, number, or person.

So my proposition of translation :
If Allah does not do the act to repel some people by others..

Past tense is okay since the apodosis clause جواب الشرط is past passive verb.