Author Topic: Why PLURAL to call God......  (Read 1044 times)

Mazhar

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Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2019, 12:01:48 AM »
would you pls bring me couple of verses other than these two verses for me to study...


إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ
[Our Sustainer Lord Ar'Reh'maan] You the Exalted are the One and Only Whom we presently and henceforth solely and exclusively owe and demonstrate allegiance and servitude —

 آپ اور صرف آپ جناب ہیں جن کی بندگی ہم تسلسل سے بااظہارکرتے ہیں اور کرتے رہیں گے

Explanation: Video (Urdu) - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ع ب د

وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِيـنُ .1:05٥
Moreover, You the Exalted are exclusively the One we keep looking for rendering the environment supportive and assisting to elevate ourselves. [1:5]

(اور صرف آپ ہیں جن سے اپنی شخصیت کواوج ثریا پر لے جانے کیلئے اعانت کے ہم طلبگار ہیں۔(۵

Explanation: Video (Urdu)  - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ع و ن

ٱهْدِنَا ٱلصِّرَٟطَ ٱلْمُسْتَقِيـمَ.1:06٦
Our Sustainer Lord Ar'Reh'maan! You the Exalted do keep guiding us upon the High road that leads safely and stably to the destination of peace and tranquillity — [1:6]

[اِس لئے عام انسان کیلئے مختص کردہ اوج ثریاپر جانے کیلئے]
(آپ صراط مستقیم :منزل کی جانب رواں دواں رکھنے والے راستے پرہمیں رہنمائی؍/ہدایت دیتے رہیں۔(۶

Explanation: Video (Urdu) - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ھ د ى; ص ر ط; ق و م

We are calling. The Called is  by singular pronoun. It is so every where within and outside Qur'an.

http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm

jkhan

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Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2019, 01:23:13 AM »

إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ
[Our Sustainer Lord Ar'Reh'maan] You the Exalted are the One and Only Whom we presently and henceforth solely and exclusively owe and demonstrate allegiance and servitude —

 آپ اور صرف آپ جناب ہیں جن کی بندگی ہم تسلسل سے بااظہارکرتے ہیں اور کرتے رہیں گے

Explanation: Video (Urdu) - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ع ب د

وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِيـنُ .1:05٥
Moreover, You the Exalted are exclusively the One we keep looking for rendering the environment supportive and assisting to elevate ourselves. [1:5]

(اور صرف آپ ہیں جن سے اپنی شخصیت کواوج ثریا پر لے جانے کیلئے اعانت کے ہم طلبگار ہیں۔(۵

Explanation: Video (Urdu)  - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ع و ن

ٱهْدِنَا ٱلصِّرَٟطَ ٱلْمُسْتَقِيـمَ.1:06٦
Our Sustainer Lord Ar'Reh'maan! You the Exalted do keep guiding us upon the High road that leads safely and stably to the destination of peace and tranquillity — [1:6]

[اِس لئے عام انسان کیلئے مختص کردہ اوج ثریاپر جانے کیلئے]
(آپ صراط مستقیم :منزل کی جانب رواں دواں رکھنے والے راستے پرہمیں رہنمائی؍/ہدایت دیتے رہیں۔(۶

Explanation: Video (Urdu) - Word by word analysis [English - Urdu] Root: ھ د ى; ص ر ط; ق و م

We are calling. The Called is  by singular pronoun. It is so every where within and outside Qur'an.

http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm

Peace brother...
thank you .... but i don't see hardly any connection to my question or my initial thread.with above explanatoin... those two verses are typical or rather unique in my understanding...but i didnt get the proper reply... .. let me wait ... in case someone get my point and get back ...

Mazhar

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Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2019, 06:00:36 AM »
Peace brother...
thank you .... but i don't see hardly any connection to my question or my initial thread.with above explanatoin... those two verses are typical or rather unique in my understanding...but i didnt get the proper reply... .. let me wait ... in case someone get my point and get back ...

Why you are not getting an answer; reason is you are staring with fixed eyes. Not looking any other side. Please re-read your problem

Quote
Normally when we ask a dua or supplication we call only our Lord, Creator of Earth and Heavens and whatever between them….We don’t want to call anyone else and ask our dua… right?...When God used “WE” in verses we can simply deduce that between God and US another is in operation or assisting… That’s Angel Messengers…for example ….”WE destroyed them”  or We delivered the message or WE called Ibrahim…God, Angel messengers involved in doing such things for human…So WE could suit without doubt… that’s my understanding… if any other substantial understanding pls present…

But my question is relevant with below verse… or such similar verses…

37:75-76 “And Noah had certainly called US, (nādānā) and [We are] the best of responders. And WE saved him and his family from the great affliction.”
Above is not the statement of Nuh directly in quran.. but directly from God saying Nuh called US instead of ME (God)… why Nuh need to call in PLURAL instead of SINGULAR….

Firstly how did Nuh alahissalam called him.


وَنَادَى نُوحٚ رَّبَّهُۥ

Know it; Noah [alai'his'slaam] had groaned to his Sustainer Lord —

فَقَالَ رَبِّ إِنَّ ٱبْنِى مِنْ أَهْلِـى

Thereat [because of passion for progeny] he said: "My Sustainer Lord! indeed my son was from my family —

Is this address in plural? And his Lord is telling us "He called upon Our Majesty". The true style of a Sovereign Lord.
Where is the confusion?


كَذَّبَتْ قَبْلَـهُـمْ قَوْمُ نُوحٛ

Before them, the nation of Noah [alai'his'slaam] had publicly contradicted the people —

فَكَذَّبُوا۟ عَبْدَنَا وَقَالُوا۟ مَجْنُونٚ وَٱزْدُجِرَ .54:09٩

In response they contradicted publicly Our Sincere Allegiant and they said, "Obsessed by delusions", and he was taunted. [54:09]

فَدَعَا رَبَّهُۥٓ أَنِّـى مَغْلُوبٚ فَٱنتَصِرْ .54:10١٠

Thereat, he prayed to his Sustainer Lord, "Indeed I have become despairing/hopeless [seeing their persistent negative response], therefore, You do decide to help [conclude the matter]." [54:10]

Where is Plural in his prayer?

jkhan

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Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2019, 08:53:46 AM »
Peace....

Did you guys got me what I wrote…or my explanation is bit awkward to divert to another angle of this topic… …. Yes.. Quincy and Mazhar. Lord is King, Sovereign… and HE is our Majesty….that’s true…but where is the word …. But take the below example pls…
38:41 “And remember Our servant Job, WHEN HE CALLED (nādā) TO HIS LORD, ……. …. ."
So it is not necessary to call even at a time of trouble (“nadanā” – ‘CALLED US’) unless something was distinctive with the way Nuh approached… isn’t it? Approach of Ibrahim in11:74 is crystal clear (Ibrahim-Angel Messengers-God{indirect}) so “ Yujādilunā” ‘Argued with US’ is used. Remember in this ‘US’ God is included …it was not merely an argument between Angels and Ibrahim…Angel Messengers have no reason to argue with human..unless it was an argument of God and Ibrahim.. but they talked what God wanted to talk..it was only the voice of Angel Messengers but it is the words of God that they uttered… don’t you think so..?
Since Prophert Ayyub called directly his Lord no Messengers involved in that call.. SINGULAR. Same we call our Lord in Dua (Ya Allah, Ya Rahman, Ya Rabbi). Had Nuh called directly then, I don’t see any reason for him to call his Lord as God says ‘nadanā’… We normally know how Nuh called his Lord.. for example 11:45 “And Noah CALLED TO HIS LORD and said, "MY LORD, indeed my son is of my family ….." in this there is nothing wrong.. isn’t it?…but 37:75 is different completely.. but somehow ‘Called US’ is used…God didn’t say ‘Called ME’..so MY LORD is not the way Nuh could have used in 37:75..…for me Nuh never called his Lord by words in 37:75…but same as Ibrahim, Nuh would have been discussing with Angel Messengers…never called his Lord. that’s my option… we better view this in a wider possible vistas.. I sense it is something more than Royal or Majesty merely to support ‘US’…but I don’t see the word ‘majesty’ is inserted there..(nada+na is just simply called+us)I feel the involvement of God – Malaika – Man.. simply like a relay in the conversation .. …has anyone perceived it in this way? If it in case Majesty or Royal then explain me how can it can be in the case of Ibrahim in 11:74…Did he call his Majesty while he was only arguing with Angel Messengers on behalf of Lut community… Don’t rush to respond.. it looks very intricate … scrupulously study, you may find probably the difference..

Brother Mazhr....
I am afraid you are still not picking me unfortunately.... And I still guess you have not focused on what I have tried to present and not read all threads... I have clearly stated I am not convinced... So I am not fixed... If am fixed I won't bring the concern to table.  Since I needed clarification I raised a topic.... Okay fine...
You have brought the same verse of Nuh and asking the same thing from me.. ... read reply#4...it shows you have not read... I said there is nothing wrong nuh calling direct...
Am I testing your patience? 😒..
Okay let me put this way... Do you say 'I worship /serve My Lord or Lords?   whom you serve(ibad)? You will only serve Your Lord. Right... Did God ever ask to serve/worship in plural? I hope No...He says to ""Serve ME""  If my memory ok... Correct me.. If wrong... So we are His Abdi... Right... So.. In case if God says OUR abd... Then are we slaves of God+
You notice OUR is used with Abd.... Like abdi-na...
So you call it Majesty.... I am not getting this right... I think I have to study in depth why it is...

Mazhar

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Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2019, 09:11:30 AM »
Brother Mazhr....
I am afraid you are still not picking me unfortunately.... And I still guess you have not focused on what I have tried to present and not read all threads... I have clearly stated I am not convinced... So I am not fixed... If am fixed I won't bring the concern to table.  Since I needed clarification I raised a topic.... Okay fine...
You have brought the same verse of Nuh and asking the same thing from me.. ... read reply#4...it shows you have not read... I said there is nothing wrong nuh calling direct...
Am I testing your patience? 😒..
Okay let me put this way... Do you say 'I worship /serve My Lord or Lords?   whom you serve(ibad)? You will only serve Your Lord. Right... Did God ever ask to serve/worship in plural? I hope No...He says to ""Serve ME""  If my memory ok... Correct me.. If wrong... So we are His Abdi... Right... So.. In case if God says OUR abd... Then are we slaves of God+
You notice OUR is used with Abd.... Like abdi-na...
So you call it Majesty.... I am not getting this right... I think I have to study in depth why it is...

Still not clear. Are you trying to explore why Allah uses plural pronoun which is referent for His Self?

jkhan

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Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2019, 09:18:32 PM »
Still not clear. Are you trying to explore why Allah uses plural pronoun which is referent for His Self?

Peace everyone..

7:143 “And when Moses arrived at OUR appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at YOU." [Allah] said, "You will not see ME, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see ME." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are YOU! I have repented to YOU, and I am the first of the believers."
20:12 “Indeed, I AM your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa.
Look at the above verses.. crystal clear… aren’t they?.. whenever plural, it gives the meaning that Messengers involved…whenever single, it is obvious that God is ONE.. for example God said “ … OUR appointed time …” so it shows Musa was given a prior message through a messenger/s to come to certain place”… OUR is manifest thus…coz God used Messengers..
In other occasions… singular precisely…
let’s leave the matter of Abdi-na aside for sometime… Abdi-na God’s statement and no human involved…  since my thread concerned with verses as I produced 37:75 & 11:74.. these are verses human involved in a dialogue not typical with Abdi-na 20:23 etc..

I ask you Brother Mazhar or anyone… Can you explain your understanding for these two verses 37:75 & 11:74 in this manner….i anticipate now I am clear what I am asking..

 

11:75 ----- With Whom Ibrahim argued?  Is it Angel Messengers only or God or both? .. use the word ‘yujādilu-nā’ to explain

37:75 ----- To whom Nuh called? To God directly OR through a dialogue with an Angel messenger/s? Use the word ‘nadā-nā’  to explain


Mazhar

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Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2019, 12:37:08 AM »
There is one thing in writings called perspective. When Allah tells something (informative text) to the audience and uses Plural pronoun for His Self, it refers only to Him and not that some others are standing along with Him, to use We while speaking to audience.

Look at the call of the callers. They call only ONE, not a group.


فَلَمَّا ذَهَبَ عَنْ إِبْرَٟهِيـمَ ٱلرَّوْعُ وَجَآءَتْهُ ٱلْبُشْـرَىٰ

Resultantly as soon apprehension vanished from Iebra'heim [alai'his'slaam] and good news had reached him —

يُجَـٟدِلُنَا فِـى قَوْمِ لُوطٛ .11:74٧٤

He started arguing with Our Majesty in the matter of nation of Luet [alai'his'slaam]. [11:74]

The discussion with the visitor Angels was over. Having come to know the mission for which Angels were sent, it is direct one to one interaction wherein he was pleading for the nation of Luet alahissalam who were to become the victim of punishment. And then Allah swt tells that he was contesting the case because of his nature. He was pleading before the ''King'' who had ordered punishment. Allah accordingly uses Majestic Pronoun for His Person.

jkhan

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Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2019, 02:07:13 AM »



يُجَـٟدِلُنَا فِـى قَوْمِ لُوطٛ .11:74٧٤

He started arguing with Our Majesty in the matter of nation of Luet [alai'his'slaam]. [11:74]



Brother.... Peace..

Honestly, i don't want to stress you on this anymore unless you have patience with me..... I feel you solely working hard on it... but i am not getting satisfied whenever i see the response...  :-[ :-[ ..... So.. it may make you unpleasant on the long run.... Coz it is not a debate in a manner.. but sort of resorting to clarification....
Is this your translation so.... it means you add a word Majesty which is not there in the word 'Nada'...
what is Majesty in Arabic or in Quran? Is there a word Majesty in quran.. .if so let me compare at least where it is used and for what reason......  :confused: :confused:

Mazhar

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Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2019, 03:14:35 AM »
Brother.... Peace..

Honestly, i don't want to stress you on this anymore unless you have patience with me..... I feel you solely working hard on it... but i am not getting satisfied whenever i see the response...  :-[ :-[ ..... So.. it may make you unpleasant on the long run.... Coz it is not a debate in a manner.. but sort of resorting to clarification....
Is this your translation so.... it means you add a word Majesty which is not there in the word 'Nada'...
what is Majesty in Arabic or in Quran? Is there a word Majesty in quran.. .if so let me compare at least where it is used and for what reason......  :confused: :confused:

I use two words where ever the name Allah is mentioned; the Exalted, since He is intrinsically Exalted. We are informed:


وَهُوَ ٱلْعَلِـىُّ ٱلْعَظِيـمُ .2:255٢٥٥

Remain vigilant; He is the One and only Exalted Supreme, the Greatest - the Almighty. [Refer 2:255]


عَٟلِمُ ٱلْغَيْبِ وَٱلشَّهَٟدَةِ

He the Exalted is the Knower of the Invisible and the Visible domains, continuously and simultaneously —

ٱلْـكَبِيـرُ ٱلْمُتَعَالِ .13:09٩

Indeed Allah the Exalted  is eternally the Greatest, The Exclusively most exalted Dominant. [13:09]


فَتَعَٟلَـى ٱللَّهُ ٱلْمَلَِكُ ٱلْحَقُّۗ

[they conjecture] Thus Allah is Exalted, truly and factually the Sublime Sovereign.

As a humble subject, we must mention the name of our Sovereign Lord with appropriate honorifics of grandeur.

 

Hizbullah

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Re: Why PLURAL to call God......
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2019, 07:03:40 AM »
Peace

FIRST OFF: Quran was the 2nd Book that was sent DIRECTLY to the 2nd Messenger Prophet – the Quranic Seal of the Prophets, just like the 1st Messenger-Prophet Moses but the only difference is that Moses was not able to see ALLAH directly but the Quranic Seal of the Prophets did! For this, please read Quran Chapter 53:01-20.

Further, ALLAH says in the Quran thru HIS Prophet

And not is for a MALE HUMAN BEING that ALLAH should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

From the above verse, ALLAH spoke to a male Human Being in a form of

A. Direct Revelation

B. Thru a Veil

C. Thru a Messenger - in this case it the Spiri Angel Messengers JIbril or Mikaal or both!

In the case of A, this Quran, Chapter 53 confirms that the revelation was directly reveal to the Quranic Seal of the Prophets!

In the case of B, the Prophets Joseph, Moses and his mother was spoken to "indirectly" in a veil without any 3rd party!

In the case of C, the Prophets Abraham, Lut, Esa and his mother - Mary, were spoken thru a 3rd Party - the Spirit Angel Messengers!


The use of the singular 1st Person

1 - God speaks in the singular 1st Person (I) to assert HIS absolute Oneness. This is in the Present Mode with respect to time when HE spoke directly to the Messenger-Prophet Musa and the Quranic Seal of the Prophets Ministries respectively! The following are examples:

Inform My servants that I am the Ghafoor (Forgiver), the Raheem (Merciful). 15:49

I am God, there is no god but Me, therefore you shall worship Me and observe the Salat to commemorate Me. 20:14

This is Me, God, Lord of the worlds. 28:30

Such verses relate directly to the Oneness of God, as a result we will not find any verses which speak of the Oneness of God or of worshipping God alone that employ the plural pronoun.


2 - We also note that verses which speak of God’s attributes and God’s beautiful names are always phrased in the singular 3rd Person. In this case these verses were spoken by the Quranic Seal of the Prophets which he was conveying to the other Messengers of his ministry!

God bears witness that there is no god but HE. 3:18

God will suffice you against them; HE is the Samee (Hearer), the Aleem (Knowledgeable). 2:137

HE is Qahir (Supreme) over His servants. HE is the Hakeem (Wise), the Khabeer (All-Aware). 6:18

To God belongs the kingship of the heavens and the earth, and what is in them; HE is Qadeer (Capable) of all things. 5:120

This is a proclamation for the people, and with which they are warned, and for them to know that HE is but Wahid (One) god, and for those who possess intelligence to take heed. 14:52

3. The following Quranic words speak of God’s greatness and how it can never be comprehended by the human being.

They can never fathom the greatness of God. 39: 67


4 - The plural is also used in the Quran NOT because of Royal sense, but since the message was conveyed to his Majesty the Seal of the Prophets directly and he in turn conveyed the message to his disciples – the Messengers of his Ministry and further these verses are all in the PAST & PRESENT with respect to the Ministry of the Quranic Seal of the Prophets!

We have sent messengers before you to their people. They came to them with clear proofs. Subsequently, We inflicted retribution on those who committed crimes and it was incumbent on Us to grant victory to the believers. 30:47

In 30:47 we read of three acts executed by God:

a- Messengers sent by God to guide the people from before
b- The punishment God inflicts on the criminals of those yesteryear
c- The victory granted by God to the believers of yesteryear

The three acts mentioned are not acts which take place during the Ministry of the Seal of the Prophets but in the Past, but they are all acts that are executed by a Supreme God to His servants. The plural here denotes the message of conveyance by the Quranic Seal of the Prophets! This implies to your question where the plural were used.

When Our command was issued, We saved Shu`aib and those who believed with him by mercy from Us. 11:94

A command issued by God in the PAST, thus the word ‘We’ and 'Us" is once again appropriate to denote the message of conveyance! The use of the plural is employed in the same manner in 11:40, 11:58,11:66 and those verse you mentioned!

In the Present - with respect to the Quranic Seal of the Prophets Ministry, read Quran 28:44 to 46

5. In 16:40 we witness the use of the plural to denote God’s supreme majestic power and authority whenever God wishes for anything to come into existence: In this case it applies to the two Messenger Prophets – Moses and the Quranic Seal of the Prophets as they were acting on behalf of God HIMSELF!

Our word to anything when We will it, is to say to it, "Be" and it is. 16:40

Hope this help.

 :peace:

My knowledge of the Quran has been updated