Author Topic: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.  (Read 3001 times)

Noon waalqalami

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2019, 04:02:13 PM »
Topic is about the spelling of the name "Abraham" ابرهم  in chapter 2.
The manuscript you posted does not contain chapter 2.[

peace -- already posted ch 2 older manuscripts and you posted other chapters, therefore.

ibn_a

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2019, 11:52:51 PM »
Salaam,



not oldest makes no difference if spelled with/without “ya” or written in English.

Peace Noon,

Oldest, older continuously changing your definition of oldest.

I  think it is not wise / prudent to rule out that the particular spelling of certain words in the Quran is part of revelation and has purposes and meanings we don't know yet.

Example when the scribes were writing this 96:1 :

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم     اقرا باسم ربك الذي خلق

They must have had instructions, a source, otherwise why would they write:

bismi allah without Alif and bismi rabbika with Alif


The spelling of the name Abraham ابرهم    without the letter "ya ي
in chapter 2, and Abraham with the letter "ya ي"  in the rest of the Quran seems intended and for a reason.



It is more likely that original was spelled  without "ya ي" in chapter 2 and with "ya ي" in the 24 other chapters, and that some scribes added the letter "ya ي" in chapter 2 to conform to the rest of the manuscript, "thinking they were correcting an error" of  previous scribes, while this particular spelling seems intended.
In some "oldest manuscripts" with "ya ي"and in others whithout "ya ي" in chapter 2.




peace -- already posted ch 2 older manuscripts and you posted other chapters, therefore.




First you post this manuscript: carbon dating — 662-765, σ2 (95,4%) [?⁴C-Datierung durch Coranica]
Peace, in oldest manuscripts spelled same with ى (ya) e.g. 2:260:3 ابرهىم Ibrahim ا ب ر ه ى م

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163





Then this manuscript : date 700-1000
Peace, is this about numerology – why in oldest manuscripts it's spelled the same?

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=878





And this manuscript:date  2nd century
They did it 100+ years later; how many examples old manuscripts do you need -- one should suffice?

Sana manuscript 2nd century!







Then you post (links to) manuscripts that don't contain chapter 2, not sure what you want to prove by this.


Do you know how statistical probability dating works?
MA VI 165 Qur’an 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http://idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165


No chapter 2 in this manuscript.



Birmingham Qur’an 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspx


No chapter 2 in this manuscript.




peace, again use "the oldest" manuscripts e.g. this one spread across two libraries.

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham): Islamic Arabic 1572
9 sheets - 33.3 x 24.5 cm.mm - fol. 1 and 7 (= 1572a): 568-645, َ2 (95.4%) [?⁴C dating by Cadbury Research Library]; fol. 2-6, 8 and 9 (= 1572b): before 750 (?) Parchment - Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham) (Birmingham, UK) - 004: 129-004: 152; 004: 153-005: 027; 006: 074-006: 122; 006: 122-006: 143; 018: 017-018: 031; 019: 091-020: 030 - 22-30 lines

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/75?handschrift=158

Paris, National Library of France: Arabic 328 (c)
16 sheets - 333x245mm - Radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham Fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a), originally from the same code: 568-645 CE (95.4%) - parchment - Biblioth?que nationale de France (Paris, FR) - 010 : 035: 009-010: 048: 007; 010: 049: 000-011: 110: 000; 020: 099: 000-020: 113: 000; 020: 117: 000-020: 128: 000; 020: 131 : 000-022: 058: 000; 022: 062: 000-023: 027: 000 - 24-25 lines



No chapter2 in this manuscript.


                                             
    ***************************


Compare to the (links to) manuscripts that i posted:
I think it is difficult to maintain your claim that in "oldest" manuscripts the name Abraham ابرهيم  was spelled with the letter "ya ي.


This manuscrpt, date: 700-850


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/126/handschrift/170
   2:126     I B R H M     ابرهم   
   2:127    I B R H M      ابرهم   
-----


-------




This manuscrpt, date: 700-900

In this manuscript in chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is also spelled:  IBRHM  ابرهم 

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124?handschrift=428
....

-------




This manuscrpt, date:
 .... radiocarbon analysis under the auspices of the Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to 652-763 CE with 95.4% probability, with that range being broken down into a 89.3% probability that it dates to between 652 and 694 CE and a 6.1% probability that it dates to between 747 and 763 CE.[3]...


Manuscript( arabe331)

Chapter 2 :

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/125/handschrift/32
 ابرهم   





والله اعلم
Allah knows best.




Noon waalqalami

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2019, 06:56:39 AM »
Oldest, older continuously changing your definition of oldest.

peace -- simple definition (specific age) e.g. manuscript is older than another manuscript.

They must have had instructions, a source, otherwise why would they write:
off topic, perhaps open a separate topic on word to peruse.

First you post this manuscript: carbon dating ? 662-765, σ2 (95,4%) [?⁴C-Datierung durch Coranica]

yes an example containing chapter 2

Then you post (links to) manuscripts that don't contain chapter 2, not sure what you want to prove by this.

yes in response to your example which did not contain chapter 2.
likewise my example was ~100+ years older than your example.

Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham): Islamic Arabic 1572
9 sheets - 33.3 x 24.5 cm.mm - fol. 1 and 7 (= 1572a): 568-645, َ2 (95.4%)

Paris, National Library of France: Arabic 328 (c)
16 sheets - 333x245mm - Radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham Fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a), originally from the same code: 568-645 CE (95.4%)

Compare to the (links to) manuscripts that i posted:

This manuscrpt, date: 700-850

This manuscrpt, date: 700-900


This manuscrpt, date:
 .... radiocarbon analysis under the auspices of the Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to 652-763 CE with 95.4% probability, with that range being broken down into a 89.3% probability that it dates to between 652 and 694 CE and a 6.1% probability that it dates to between 747 and 763 CE.[3]...

that is how you confuse people by sandwiching example which does not contain chapter 2.

conclusion: few examples written with/without ya should suffice that it was not a big deal.




ibn_a

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2019, 02:48:40 AM »
Salaam,



yes in response to your example which did not contain chapter 2.

Peace Noon,

I did not post a manuscript that does not contain chapter 2 .



likewise my example was ~100+ years older than your example.


- This is the oldest manuscript ( that contains chapter 2 ) that you posted:

Berlin, Staatsbibliothek: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163
95.4% statistical probability dated between 662-765 CE




- This is the oldest manuscript that i posted:
...
radiocarbon analysis under the auspices of the Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to 652-763 CE with 95.4% probability,
...
 
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/arabe331.html



Where do you see: " ~100+ years older "?

------------------------------------



Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham): Islamic Arabic 1572
9 sheets - 33.3 x 24.5 cm.mm - fol. 1 and 7 (= 1572a): 568-645, َ2 (95.4%)

Paris, National Library of France: Arabic 328 (c)
16 sheets - 333x245mm - Radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham Fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a), originally from the same code: 568-645 CE (95.4%)

^^^  This manuscript does not contain chapter 2, therefore irrelevant !!!


------------------------------------

that is how you confuse people by sandwiching example which does not contain chapter 2.

 Confusion is when you post 3 manuscripts that do not contain chapter 2.


conclusion: few examples written with/without ya should suffice that it was not a big deal.


If the particular spelling of  the name Abraham in chapter 2 is part of revelation and preserved in the current hafs manuscript, then it has a purpose, and this purpose would be lost if the letter ya was added.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



ibn_a

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Re: TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2019, 02:19:25 AM »
Salaam,




Salaam,




Qiraa'a ( reading ) Hichaam an ibn Amer.
رواية هشام عن ابن عامر


Chapter 2  " IBRAHAAMA"        ابرهم

Audio:

http://dl.islamweb.net/audiopath/Audio3/quran/MeftahAlstunai/HishamIbnAmer/002.mp3

0:41:51       --------->     0:47:52

Chapter 2 verse 124 to verse 140,  you will hear 11 occurrences of " IBRAHAAMA"      ابرهم
------------------


In the rest of the Quran: " IBRAHEEMA"    ابرهيم

Example chapter 87

Audio:

http://dl.islamweb.net/audiopath/Audio3/quran/MeftahAlstunai/HishamIbnAmer/087.mp3

1:32

 you will hear: " IBRAHEEMA"    ابرهيم

The link does not work anymore, new link here:


Qiraa'a ( reading ) Hichaam from ibn Amer.   رواية هشام عن ابن عامر



Chapter 2 سورة البقرة    " IBRAHAAM"        ابرهم

Audio:

https://audio.islamweb.net/audio/index.php?page=souraview&qid=1552&rid=26

41:48 ------> 47:52

Chapter 2 verse 124 to verse 140,  you will hear 11 occurrences of " IBRAHAAM"   ابرهم


----------------------------------


In the rest of the Quran: " IBRAHEEM"    ابرهيم

Example chapter 3  سورة آل عمران

Audio:

https://audio.islamweb.net/audio/index.php?page=souraview&qid=1552&rid=26

20:00 -------> 21:25

Chapter 3 verse 65 to verse 68,  you will hear 3 occurrences of " IBRAHEEM "    ابرهيم



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.