Author Topic: I am a former Tanakh Jew  (Read 2539 times)

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3980
  • Karma +64/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: I am a former Tanakh Jew
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2019, 07:02:45 PM »
Hello

My name is Mordy.

I am a former Tanakh Jew, basically a sola-scriptura Jew, similar to a Karaite Jew.  What that meant was that I viewed Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible) as the sole infallible ‘Word of God’.

Shalom Mordy.. Baruch Haba..  :welcome:

Quote
My Tanakh Jewish faith fell apart back in March this year when I continued to find contradictions within the Biblical text and with recorded history.

This meant I could no longer be a Jew, non-rabbinic or rabbinic, and it also meant I couldn’t be a Christian either.  To me the scripture of a religion should stand alone, tradition-less and free of opinion.  In the last verse of Judges it says not to make our own opinion (as Karaites do – they say ‘search the scripture well’ and only to go with the weight of evidence, but personal opinion, grounded in Biblical exegesis, is what they say to do), yet the rabbinic opinions in the ‘oral law’ contradict the Written Law, so both rabbinic and non-rabbinic Judaism was out of the question.


Islam is much closer to Judaism than Christianity is, plus Tanakh and Karaite Jews pray by full prostration, albeit in the direction of the Western Wall in Jerusalem.

I am happy to be here, and I will continue reading the Qur’an, but the hadith are traditions on top of scripture, so a Muslim sola-scriptura movement would be more appealing.  Sorry if I got the wrong impression or you found that offensive.

Thank you for reading.

Then you will soon evolve from "Sola Scriptura" and more towards "Solus Deus"..
No books is perfect only God is..


My answer is primarily to whether we need a scripture to be able to submit to God alone. So Gentiles too can have the ability to be able to submit to God Alone without any scripture by his reasoning. And whoever does that and do good work they will have their reward in hereafter.

Exactly....

Moses. Aaron, Miriam never read the Tanakh, Jesus never read the Gospel and it's doubtful that Muhammad ever read the Quran in the current form and version as of to date. Abraham never read any of the above.

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Karma +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: I am a former Tanakh Jew
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2019, 07:22:10 PM »
Shalom Mordy.. Baruch Haba..  :welcome:

Then you will soon evolve from "Sola Scriptura" and more towards "Solus Deus"..
No books is perfect only God is..


Exactly....

Moses. Aaron, Miriam never read the Tanakh, Jesus never read the Gospel and it's doubtful that Muhammad ever read the Quran in the current form and version as of to date. Abraham never read any of the above.

If no book is perfect then God is also not perfect...  :rotfl:....to say this you have to be perfect  :bravo:

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3980
  • Karma +64/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: I am a former Tanakh Jew
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2019, 07:50:50 PM »
If no book is perfect then God is also not perfect...  :rotfl:....to say this you have to be perfect  :bravo:

Huh?? What an odd logic..  :rotfl:

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Karma +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: I am a former Tanakh Jew
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2019, 08:39:27 PM »
Huh?? What an odd logic..  :rotfl:

Hmm.... Yeah... Let's see whether logic is Odd...
You said "No books is perfect only God is"...... let's see how do you claim that and with what authority....

Somehow God is perfect for you.... And the book the God claim is His is not perfect for you... In your "No books" quran also should be comprised... Isn't it?  Coz that's what your statement elaborate manifestly....
So the book that God tells is not perfect, and the book that God tells that there is God is not perfect while He promised to preserve the book and confirms that in the book no contradiction.... Even such book also not perfect for you... So the one claim as author also has to be imperfect in your statemnt... How did you know that God is perfect without a book... How did you know in the first place that God does exist to be precise without a book claiming so from  God to call He is perfect... . To call something perfect, better study that first... Or to call something imperfect (for example all books) you have to be superior than the authors of the book.. Simply you have to be perfect than God's book to call it imperfect...
Words are easier to say brother Jafer....

So God's SPEECH (quran)  is not perfect but God perfect... What a blinder... Speech is imperfect but God is perfect.. Lol 😂

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Karma +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: I am a former Tanakh Jew
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2019, 11:21:46 PM »
Peace

My answer is primarily to whether we need a scripture to be able to submit to God alone. So Gentiles too can have the ability to be able to submit to God Alone without any scripture by his reasoning. And whoever does that and do good work they will have their reward in hereafter.

Lets see the example from Abraham

6:75 And it is such that We showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, so that he will be of those who have certainty.
6:76 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said, "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said, "I do not like those that disappear."
6:77 So when he saw the moon rising, he said: "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said: "If my Lord does not guide me, then I will be among the wicked people!"
6:78 So when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my Lord, this is bigger." But when it disappeared he said, "My people, I am innocent of what you have set up."
6:79 "I shall turn my face to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth, in monotheism, and I am not of the polytheists."

So Abraham was able to come to the conclusion that there is a supreme being who has created us and everything in heavens and earth. Its in our DNA to search for our creator as all of us testified already.

7:172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves: "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.

Once we are in that mindset and submitted to God Alone then we can explore if God has sent us any messages. If we try to find we will see that yes God has sent messengers and scriptures as per our ability.

Gentiles are the people who never received any scripture.

2:78 Amongst them are Gentiles who do not know the book except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.

Both Gentiles and the people of the book can submit to God alone

3:20 If they debate with you, then say, "I have peacefully surrendered myself to God, as well as those who follow me." In addition, say to those who were given the book and the Gentiles: "Have you peacefully surrendered?" If they have peacefully surrendered then they are guided; but if they turn away, then you are only to deliver. God is watcher over the servants.

Before the revelation of the Quran Muhammad was a Gentile(He did not have knowledge of Torah or Injil) and he was sent to Gentiles.

7:157 "Those who follow the gentile prophet whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Injeel; he orders them to goodness, deters them from evil, he makes lawful for them the good things, he forbids for them the evil, and he removes their burden and the shackles imposed upon them. So those who acknowledged him, honored him, supported him, and followed the light that was sent down with him; these are the successful."

 7:158 Say, "O people, I am God's messenger to you all. The One who has the sovereignty of heavens and earth, there is no god but He; He gives life and causes death." So acknowledge God and His gentile prophet, who acknowledges God and His words; and follow him that you may be guided.

62:2 He is the One who sent to the Gentiles a messenger from among themselves, to recite to them His signs, to purify them, to teach them the book and the wisdom. Before this, they were clearly astray.


Issa/Esau ibne Mariam Messiah was sent to the Children of Israel who were people of the book. (I am not quite convinced that Jesus/YESHUA and Issa/Esau are the same person. I recommend reading the book "Who Was Jesus?: A Conspiracy in Jerusalem" by Kamal Salibi) .

61:6 When Issa, son of Mariam, said, "O children of Israel, I am God's messenger to you, authenticating what is present with me of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be ‘most acclaimed.'" But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, ‘This is clearly magic.

So yes the prophet mentioned in the Injil is Muhammad.


 

Peace... ST1111
Good points...

let's start everything from the very beginning... God promised of guidance..so it cannot be just imagination but through an Angel messenger to human... So God has communicated from the beginning... Below verse confirms it...
2:38 "We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when GUIDANCE comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve."

90:10 "And have shown him the two ways?" further read 76:3 and 16:9 which speaks of two paths....

God may put us in right track without a book but to get confirmed for self it requires a book..
Very fair your comments sighting Ibrahim... But was Ibrahim confirmed himself till he received revelation is key... Even Ibrahim wanted confirmation after revelation for which he was requested to train birds and kill them and put in mountains... It was unnecessary if he was perfectly agreed... Something perplexed him...
So, I think we need guidance from God in writing as well invisible.  That's my view and I don't confirm it.. But I feel for me I need a book and without it I may not be I am right now...
People may still get guided without book but with God's invisible guidance but I believe such would in the end turn to book... I wonder after God guided one and not let approach His book...
It's my perception only not a debate to negate... Refer 7:146 also for support

Simple way if we explain.... For any new thing better to have a manual to refer from the producer.. Though may able to make it function.. But better manual.. Isn't it.. So.. Better the book from God to avert confusion... Remember my personal view ...can differ people to people...
God bless you...

seekingtruth1111

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 155
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: I am a former Tanakh Jew
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2019, 05:11:05 AM »
Peace... ST1111
Good points...

let's start everything from the very beginning... God promised of guidance..so it cannot be just imagination but through an Angel messenger to human... So God has communicated from the beginning... Below verse confirms it...
2:38 "We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when GUIDANCE comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve."

90:10 "And have shown him the two ways?" further read 76:3 and 16:9 which speaks of two paths....

God may put us in right track without a book but to get confirmed for self it requires a book..
Very fair your comments sighting Ibrahim... But was Ibrahim confirmed himself till he received revelation is key... Even Ibrahim wanted confirmation after revelation for which he was requested to train birds and kill them and put in mountains... It was unnecessary if he was perfectly agreed... Something perplexed him...
So, I think we need guidance from God in writing as well invisible.  That's my view and I don't confirm it.. But I feel for me I need a book and without it I may not be I am right now...
People may still get guided without book but with God's invisible guidance but I believe such would in the end turn to book... I wonder after God guided one and not let approach His book...
It's my perception only not a debate to negate... Refer 7:146 also for support

Simple way if we explain.... For any new thing better to have a manual to refer from the producer.. Though may able to make it function.. But better manual.. Isn't it.. So.. Better the book from God to avert confusion... Remember my personal view ...can differ people to people...
God bless you...

Peace Jkhan,

My point was what will happen to Gentiles(People who never received any book or messenger) . God has created us with the innate ability to submit to the Creator and discern good and bad  and chose the right path as God guides us to both paths.

90:10 We guided him to both paths?
90:11 He should choose the better path.

Do we always need a scripture to chose the right path?

With or without scripture Good people will chose the right path and Bad people will chose the wrong path. So its possible to be a Muslim without a scripture  and ask God to guide us and do good work.

30:30 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in the creation of God. Such is the pure system, but most of the people do not know.

The term fitrah, rendered  as "natural disposition/inclination", connotes in this context man's inborn, intuitive ability to discern between right and wrong, true and false, and, thus, to sense God's existence and oneness.

However  the people who have received book and messenger there is no excuse to reject it and not to follow it. And once we believe in the veracity of the book and follow its instructions we become Mumin.

4:165 Messengers who were bearers of good news and warners, so that there will be no excuse for the people with God after the messengers. God is Noble, Wise.

And God said for every nation there is messenger

10:47 For every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.

So probably every nation in this world probably got messengers and some sort of scripture. Quran is the last scripture.

6:19 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches. Do you bear witness that along with God are other gods?" Say, "I do not bear witness!" Say, "He is only One god, and I am innocent of your setting up partners!

And I think Quran has reached everyone in this era of communication. I don't think there will be any gentiles left in the world. Anyone who wishes to be guided has the means to search and  recognize the true message.







jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1116
  • Karma +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: I am a former Tanakh Jew
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2019, 06:41:13 AM »
Dear Fellow believer STl1111

I think it is interesting... Better you create a new topic since it is under introduction... It won't be easy to search later for anyone who is interested whether scriptures are must for our salvation.   I don't know whether it is discussed previously in this forum if not create a new one and link this also.   People may have their various opinion.   For me I feel I need a book for better grasp things.... It's God's duty to send guidance if He created us... Am I right? Coz we don't know what is right for salvation.  . we can be good people and do all the good in the world but still may reject God...like my budhist friends....  So I think book worthy having saying who the God is.    Just my preference  ....

If we answer simply to the question of Kyrate (where do gentiles go after their death) then below verse would suffice.  Remember the people of the below verse were gentiles... 


3:103 "And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided"


God guides whom He wills........ 3:101 "......Whoever holds firmly to Allah will be shown a way that is straight"
As per 3:101 initiation is within oneself then only approaches...
Ibrahim had the initiative and God strengthened it..

If in fact without book if people can be guided then God would not have sent messengers and guidance reiterating with examples .. Only God could have inspired those who deserve guidance... He does anyway but He used angel messengers to communicate with us with clarity... That ended as books..

Book won't guide but God guides... Book can misguide... Isn't it... So...  God is key... He may use book or whatever He created to guide those who deserve...  But in general God's side should be safe... People may say on the day of ressurection we didn't get guidance or messages .. So God can prove I sent messengers to all community with respective witnesses .. God records everything with knowledge coz he knows human....