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Free will? The debate will continue! Discuss at will.

Started by good logic, September 18, 2019, 07:08:40 AM

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good logic

Peace All.
Another angle in the free will discussion ,quote:

Is everything we do determined by the cause-and-effect chain of genes, environment, and the cells that make up our brain, or can we freely form intentions that influence our actions in the world?
The topic is immensely complicated, and Schurger's valiant debunking underscores the need for more precise and better-informed questions.
"Philosophers have been debating free will for millennia, and they have been making progress. Or have they?:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/spotlight/a-famous-argument-against-free-will-has-been-debunked/ar-AAHrLPy?ocid=spartandhp

Just opening this can of worms again. What is new on the subject ?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/[/url]

spodacus

Salam, another thought that I have been pondering is with respect to matter and the "natural" laws that govern our universe.

41:11 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth: "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We come willingly."

33:72 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But man accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

To me this seems to indicate that all matter has the "freedom" to deviate from Allah's natural laws if they wanted, but they "choose" to abide by them out of fear/respect of Allah.

good logic

Peace spodacus.
Thanks for your view and verses.
In my opinion ,if we are held accountable for our actions, then we have some freedom of choice .
What is the difference between a computer making a decision and humans making a decision? 

One would argue a computer is not held accountable for its decisions!

One can also argue that environment/upbringing, mental illness, hormones, and brain shapes among other things demonstrates that our will is far too constrained to be considered free.

There is also the question of How easily are we manipulated? Or how free are we from being manipulated?

Some also argue that  There are too many unexplained aspects of "free will" to make it any kind of meaningful concept.

All interesting , but if our faculties of eyesight, hearing and grain are functioning correctly ,we are accountable, aren t we?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/[/url]

good logic

Peace All.
Here is another view , quote:

The trap that many people fall into is assuming we have one center of consciousness and therefore there is only one choice either conscious or unconscious. A natural animal does not have will power and choice. They only have an inner self and instinct. The secondary or ego is unique to humans.

Is this why we have free will and can override our thoughts i.e exercise our will power?
GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/[/url]

hawk99

Quote from: good logic on September 18, 2019, 07:08:40 AM
Peace All.
Another angle in the free will discussion ,quote:

Is everything we do determined by the cause-and-effect chain of genes, environment, and the cells that make up our brain, or can we freely form intentions that influence our actions in the world?
The topic is immensely complicated, and Schurger's valiant debunking underscores the need for more precise and better-informed questions.
"Philosophers have been debating free will for millennia, and they have been making progress. Or have they?:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/spotlight/a-famous-argument-against-free-will-has-been-debunked/ar-AAHrLPy?ocid=spartandhp

Just opening this can of worms again. What is new on the subject ?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Peace good logic nice article, but as usual a tempered conclusion on
the subject.  I decided to go to my office and see what's going on at
"free-minds".  I believe in free will, hence heaven and hell, unless mitigating
factors determine otherwise.  My question is "when does mitigating
circumstances negate free will"?


                                            :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Jafar

Quote from: good logic on September 18, 2019, 07:08:40 AM

Is everything we do determined by the cause-and-effect chain of genes, environment, and the cells that make up our brain, or can we freely form intentions that influence our actions in the world?


All of the above play factor to the 'decision' that an individual shall make...


But the thing is this, if there is 'something' which have knowledge of everything, any decision that any creature was/is/will make will not be unknowable and/or beyond the control of that 'something'.

Thus 'free will' from the perspective of a creature does exist, yet from the perspective of "the ultimate" it does not exist.

Thus it doesn't make sense if 'the ultimate' become angry because it's creature have a different will than what's being planned. Or 'the ultimate' faced any kind of rebellion...

good logic

Peace All.
Thanks brothers hawk and jafar for your input.
My view:
I believe in free will because I can see and feel that I alone must decide how to lead my life  As far as I know, no one is putting a gun to my head in my life to force me to go against what I choose.
I am happy to accept my accountability and exercise my free will.
This is personal and independent of everything else .
Since my knowledge is limited, I have decided- my own choice- to accept GOD restraints: helping me/interfering with my choices by trying to follow  commands and instructions in GOD s message .
I decided to let GOD s message be my guide.

To me free will either exist or does not ,it depends on  the individual .
I will also not force my view that free will exist for others if they do not see it.

GOD s role and attributes - All knowing-  are a different matter. GOD does not force our decisions.
Those who have chosen a way of life without GOD are left to their own choices and decisions

GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/[/url]

hawk99

Peace

"when does mitigating circumstances negate free will"?

Does a person in prison have free will?
The free will of a person that is manipulated by individuals or groups or dogma
may be practicing free will to get along with his/her controllers.  Does a person
who lives under threats and constraints have free will?  Or is free will inherent
in our nature?

                                        :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

good logic

Peace brother hawk.

Do you mean like this example about "mitigating circumstances"?  Quote:

Where the employee is found guilty in any hearing mitigating circumstances can influence the penalty or corrective action decision. The concept of "mitigating circumstances? refers to evidence brought by the employee that may persuade the presiding officer to hand down a lighter penalty than would normally be imposed. For example, the accused ...

Or  there a list of "mitigating circumstances" that negate free will, What are they?

Or does in some cases, one who thinks has free will is unaware of "mitigating circumstances" therefore ....one is not really free?...

Or....I would like to hear more on this issue of "mitigating circumstances" that negate free will. I mean apart from mental and physical restraints that affect the proper use of the eyesight, hearing and brain!

GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/[/url]

hawk99

Peace good logic

Quote from: good logic on September 20, 2019, 07:34:33 AM
Peace brother hawk.

Do you mean like this example about "mitigating circumstances"?  Quote:

Where the employee is found guilty in any hearing mitigating circumstances can influence the penalty or corrective action decision. The concept of "mitigating circumstances? refers to evidence brought by the employee that may persuade the presiding officer to hand down a lighter penalty than would normally be imposed. For example, the accused ...

Exactly, except philosophically the authority is God.  God knows our situation.
Even though we have free will we may not exercise it properly due to circumstance.
That is why we must depend on God's mercy at all times.

Quote from: good logic on September 20, 2019, 07:34:33 AM

Or  there a list of "mitigating circumstances" that negate free will, What are they?

As I mentioned in my previous post, the society that a person lives in, religion,
peer pressure, etc., can cause us to be followers of someone else's free will.


Quote from: good logic on September 20, 2019, 07:34:33 AM

Or does in some cases, one who thinks has free will is unaware of "mitigating circumstances" therefore ....one is not really free?...

Yes!  we can be astray and unaware of it.

                                                                                         :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden