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THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)

Started by Iyyaka, September 13, 2019, 01:46:44 PM

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Mazhar

Just read about Petra original name.
Root: ر ق م

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur'ān:

a) Total occurrences: 3

b) No of constructions: 3 Nouns

Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:

(مقاييس اللغة)

الراء والقاف والميم أصلٌ واحد يدلُّ على خَطٍّ وكتابةٍ وما أشبَهَ ذلك . فالرَّقْم: الخَطّ.

That it leads to the perception of streak, calligraphy, penmanship and writing and that which resembles it;

Lane Lexicon:  And He sealed, stamped, imprinted, or impressed. (S, TA.) And رَقَمَ الِكتَابَ, (K,) inf. n. as above, (JK,) He marked the writing with the dots, or points,

May be the city had beautiful calligraphic patterns which corresponds to the basic concept of Root.

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(556).htm
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Iyyaka

So to summary we have at least 3 hypotheses:

1) Name of a place, a location (as Mazhar suggests)
=> Petra
https://www.visitpetra.jo/DetailsPage/VisitPetra/LocationsInPetraDetailsEn.aspx?PID=4
=> Or, a locality near Amman (legend of 3 men and 1 dog)
https://www.persee.fr/doc/crai_0065-0536_1899_num_43_5_71468 (in french sorry)

2) "Inscription"
the tablet of lead or stone where were written (raqam) the names of dormant
As suggested by the other 2 Koranic verses that refer to an engraved compilation, written with the idea of readability and unambiguous detail (diacritics)
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rqm#(18:9:6)
+
[18:21] Thus We revealed them to them, that they might know that the promise of God is truth, and there is no doubt about the Hour ... => evidence of the resurection

3) "Enumeration/counting" => see previous interventions.
Good translation for this comprehension from "https://submission.org/QI#18"
[18:9] Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the numbers connected with them? They are among our wondrous signs.

Hypothesis 2 is also very interesting because it is close to the meaning of the root and by Quranic use.
[url="https://reveniraucoran.fr/"]https://reveniraucoran.fr/[/url]

Mazhar

Quote from: Iyyaka on October 23, 2019, 01:56:22 PM
So to summary we have at least 3 hypotheses:

1) Name of a place, a location (as Mazhar suggests)
=> Petra
https://www.visitpetra.jo/DetailsPage/VisitPetra/LocationsInPetraDetailsEn.aspx?PID=4
=> Or, a locality near Amman (legend of 3 men and 1 dog)
https://www.persee.fr/doc/crai_0065-0536_1899_num_43_5_71468 (in french sorry)

2) "Inscription"
the tablet of lead or stone where were written (raqam) the names of dormant
As suggested by the other 2 Koranic verses that refer to an engraved compilation, written with the idea of readability and unambiguous detail (diacritics)
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rqm#(18:9:6)
+
[18:21] Thus We revealed them to them, that they might know that the promise of God is truth, and there is no doubt about the Hour ... => evidence of the resurection

3) "Enumeration/counting" => see previous interventions.
Good translation for this comprehension from "https://submission.org/QI#18"
[18:9] Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the numbers connected with them? They are among our wondrous signs.

Hypothesis 2 is also very interesting because it is close to the meaning of the root and by Quranic use.

It is mere wandering in vacuum. You are time and again placing aside fundamentals of language; the Possessive Phrase.
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

ibn_a


Salaam,


Peace Mazhar,
Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that the original name of Petra was "Reqem or Raqmu".

Quoteأَمْ حَسِبْتَ أَنَّ أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ كَانُوا۟۟ مِنْ ءَايَٟتِنَا عَجَبٙا .18:09٩

Or have you deemed the companions of the Cave and residents of Raqeem as if they were a wonder in the displaying signs of Our Majesty —

http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm

In the translation on your website there is no explanation for Al raqim nor a reference to Petra.


Mazhar

Quote from: ibn_a on October 24, 2019, 12:03:21 PM
Salaam,


Peace Mazhar,
Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that the original name of Petra was "Reqem or Raqmu".

In the translation on your website there is no explanation for Al raqim nor a reference to Petra.

I have just translated. When I explain it by syntax, sentence structures there I will mention it.

Information about their residential place/city is also given. Their city dwellers - rulers had gone polytheists.


هَٟٓـؤُلَآءِ قَوْمُنَا ٱتَّخَذُوا۟ مِن دُونِهِۦٓ ءَالِـهَةٙۖ

Look at these people, our nation; they have purposely adopted others besides Him the Exalted as various iela'aha: godheads —

لَّوْلَا يَأْتُونَ عَلَيْـهِـم بِسُلْطَٟنِۭ بَيِّـنٛۖ

Why not they come forth about the stance upon them with a distinct authoritative argument-evidence? [instead of conjectural myths of forefathers]

فَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ ٱفْتَـرَىٰ عَلَـى ٱللَّهِ كَذِبٙا .18:15١٥

Thereby, who could be a greater evil monger-a distorter-creator of imbalances, disorder-over stepping than him who artfully conjectured a falsehood attributing it to Allah the Exalted — [18:15]

وَإِذِ ٱعْتَزَلْتُـمُوهُـمْ وَمَا يَعْبُدُونَ إِلَّا ٱللَّهَ فَأْوُواۥٓ إِلَـى ٱلْـكَهْفِ

And when you people separate from them and what they worship, except Allah the Exalted, then proceed for protective refuge towards the particular cave —

يَنْشُـرْ لَـكُـمْ رَبُّكُـم مِّن رَّحْـمَتِهِۦ وَيُـهَيِّئْ لَـكُـم مِّنْ أَمْرِكُم مِّرْفَقٙا .18:16١٦

Your Sustainer Lord will expand for you from His Mercy, and will facilitate for you in your matter making it convenient." [18:16]

The destined cave they already knew as most suitable place for hiding. Certain location clue are also mentioned with reference to movement of Sun and affect on cave.

This also confirms earlier informative statement about the name of their parental city.
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

ibn_a

Salaam,


Peace Mazhar,

I can understand your argument for relating Al raqim  الرقيم  to Petra, because of the resemblance of its original name "Reqem or Raqmu".
Do you consider also other possible meanings for Al raqim  الرقيم ?




Quote from: Mazhar on September 15, 2019, 05:46:26 PM

قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

In the next sentence the information and advice is for the Messenger:

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them  —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢
Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]

This information advice does not refer about بِعِدَّتِـهِـم.

... مَّا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ ...

Shouldn't it be like that:

18:22 ...Only a few know about them...

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Iyyaka

By combining "hypothesis" 2 and 3 :

[18:9] Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the inscription that enumerate them? They are among our wondrous signs.

Confirm by the textual context as early said.
[url="https://reveniraucoran.fr/"]https://reveniraucoran.fr/[/url]

Mazhar

Quote from: Iyyaka on October 27, 2019, 02:03:49 PM
By combining "hypothesis" 2 and 3 :

[18:9] Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the inscription that enumerate them? They are among our wondrous signs.

Confirm by the textual context as early said.

The bold is a separate dependent sentence while there is no such thing in SLT. Case endings/Irab is the heart of Arabic grammar. It is Ashab-arRaqeemi.
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]


ibn_a


Salaam,




Quote from: Mazhar on September 15, 2019, 10:49:52 AM
Thanks.

It helped me immediately detect omission in my parsing into sentences. They are two separate sentences. Second not about number.


سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ

People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —

وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ

And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —

وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ

And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.

قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them  —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .18:22٢٢

Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point [disclosed above] and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them. [18:22]

Peace Mazhar,



Agree that  ما يعلمهم الا قليل  does not refer to  بعدتهم  , but to them,
otherwise I think it would say : يعلمها

but why do you conclude that ما يعلمهم الا قليل  means:

"Since except a small segment, people do not know them".


Could you explain what other translators missed ?

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.