Author Topic: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)  (Read 6054 times)

Iyyaka

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2019, 04:02:52 AM »
Salaam,

Any idea why they guessed those specific numbers 3, 5, 7 and not other numbers ?

Salam ibn_a,

Guessing is ONLY for the groupe who say "5"/wayaqūlūna..Allah tells us that they will change their mind in the close future by saying "3"/sayaqūlūna (future). So they are not consistent..
An another group says "7"/wayaqūlūna. Allah doesn't say they are guessing.
The word of Allah are so accurate.

Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.
My opinion is that it is god (as a Master) who taught some men that the exact number was "7" as it was transmitted by Christians

Peace

ibn_a

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2019, 12:17:09 AM »
Salam ibn_a,

Guessing is ONLY for the groupe who say "5"/wayaqūlūna..Allah tells us that they will change their mind in the close future by saying "3"/sayaqūlūna (future). So they are not consistent..
An another group says "7"/wayaqūlūna. Allah doesn't say they are guessing.
The word of Allah are so accurate.

Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.
My opinion is that it is god (as a Master) who taught some men that the exact number was "7" as it was transmitted by Christians

Peace

Peace Iyyaka,

Thanks for your explanations.

let's accept that only one group guessed.
My question would be more about what indication did they have to say: 3 or 5.

Why not 3, 4 or 4, 5 or 5, 6 or other numbers?




Iyyaka

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2019, 04:20:08 AM »
Peace Iyyaka,

Thanks for your explanations.

let's accept that only one group guessed.
My question would be more about what indication did they have to say: 3 or 5.

Why not 3, 4 or 4, 5 or 5, 6 or other numbers?
Salam,

Sorry if i don't really understand you but i believed i answered you by saying :"Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.".

The text doesn't inform us WHY they believe in the number of 3 instead of 4, 8..So i don't know. It is just a fact, a report made by Allah from this time.
Do you find information in the text about this subject?

ibn_a

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2019, 12:43:06 AM »
Salaam,



Salam,

Sorry if i don't really understand you but i believed i answered you by saying :"Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.".

The text doesn't inform us WHY they believe in the number of 3 instead of 4, 8..So i don't know. It is just a fact, a report made by Allah from this time.
Do you find information in the text about this subject?

Peace Iyyaka,

I understand and appreciate your answer.
The question was not specifically intended to you.
Just wanted to know if there is a reason for those "odd numbers", and why those who guessed " jumped " from 3 to 5  avoiding number 4 .




..

Allah raises 2 problems of "counting" (Couting = "al-raqīmi" in 18:9) :
(1) The number of years
(2) The number of people in the cave

....

- Only few translators have translated Al-Raqim الرقيم in relation to numbers, others translate it as : Inscription, Tablet, stone Tablet, etc...

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/9/default.htm


- The translation in relation to numbers seems interesting because in "today Arabic" raqm رقم means number and because of the "high concentration" of numbers concerning "Ashab Alkahf":


3,  4th,  5,  6th,  7,  8th,  300,  9


- Could you explain why you translated Al-Raqim الرقيم as counting ?



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Iyyaka

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2019, 03:57:54 AM »
Salaam,

Peace Iyyaka,

- Could you explain why you translated Al-Raqim الرقيم as counting ?

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
Salam ibn_a,

Yes many different translation..The core meaning refers to the idea of writing with the idea of the full writing (with points - to distinct), marking and number.
Hans Wehr is clear here (raqama - raqm) :http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=424,ll=1181,ls=5,la=1709,sg=448,ha=277,br=402,pr=67,vi=173,mgf=370,mr=270,mn=524,aan=232,kz=919,uqq=130,ulq=829,uqa=163,uqw=662,umr=435,ums=363,umj=308,bdw=366,amr=265,asb=377,auh=659,dhq=220,mht=352,msb=97,tla=54,amj=296,ens=1,mis=841
Some, as brother Mazhar, tanslate this word as a proper name of a city (raqeem as the ancient name of modern Petra in jordania?).
http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm

For me the link with the debate about their number and the time they spent in the cave is obvious. So i translate as calculation or counting with the derivative idea that it was planned by Allah, engrave in marble.

Peace

Mazhar

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2019, 06:21:40 AM »
Salam ibn_a,

Yes many different translation..The core meaning refers to the idea of writing with the idea of the full writing (with points - to distinct), marking and number.
Hans Wehr is clear here (raqama - raqm) :http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=424,ll=1181,ls=5,la=1709,sg=448,ha=277,br=402,pr=67,vi=173,mgf=370,mr=270,mn=524,aan=232,kz=919,uqq=130,ulq=829,uqa=163,uqw=662,umr=435,ums=363,umj=308,bdw=366,amr=265,asb=377,auh=659,dhq=220,mht=352,msb=97,tla=54,amj=296,ens=1,mis=841
Some, as brother Mazhar, tanslate this word as a proper name of a city (raqeem as the ancient name of modern Petra in jordania?).
http://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm

For me the link with the debate about their number and the time they spent in the cave is obvious. So i translate as calculation or counting with the derivative idea that it was planned by Allah, engrave in marble.

Peace

The reason why I take it as Proper Noun أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ

It is a Possessive Phrase. First is ٱلْـكَهْفِ the reference they are popularly known and referred. Second is also Location. It is Location/Place/Symbol which naturally collocates with أَصْحَـٟـبَ  in Arabic.

Iyyaka

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2019, 10:30:03 AM »
The reason why I take it as Proper Noun أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ

It is a Possessive Phrase. First is ٱلْـكَهْفِ the reference they are popularly known and referred. Second is also Location. It is Location/Place/Symbol which naturally collocates with أَصْحَـٟـبَ  in Arabic.
Salam Mazhar,

Yes your arguments may be valid about the word "Raqeem" but i don't think they are correct in this passage for 2 mainly reason :

(1) Linguistic argument :

You said "It is a Possessive Phrase" => Yes but let me developped :

the words are in the genitive when they have the following main function:
 - - -The complement of the name
Complements "close" are therefore genitive.

Thus the words "l-kahfi/the cave" and "l-raqīmi/the enumeration" are two close complements to the name "aṣḥāba / companions", two essential characteristics that, unambiguously for me, allow us to understand that the Qur'an speaks about the story of the "Seven Sleepers". Without the second characteristic "" l-raqīmi / enumeration " nobody could find precisely this story because what makes the peculiarity of this history and its miraculous character is precisely to remain for decades in a cave and not to stay in caves.

To summarize, we have the following equation for any familiar with holy writing (Bible + Quran) :
   - Companions + Cave + Count of years = the story of the Seven Sleepers

(1) Contextual argument :

a.
- If it means "residents of Raqeem" (Raqeemn as a location/place) the following question is raising : Why Allah specify this place ? Does he develops this subject in next ayats ? For me no but perhaps you have an idea.
- In addition the place name raqeem is known to be one of the ancient names of petra. But the story of the "Seven Sleepers" is not in Petra but in Ephesus.

b.
- In the ayats following the ayat 18:9 Allah is developing 2 major themes which are connected closely with the introductory sign (18:9) and the key words "l-kahfi/the cave" and "l-raqīmi/the enumeration" :
(1) The time of the cave: the reason why they took refuge in the cave (18: 13-16) + the time in the cave (18: 17-18)
and
(2) After cave time and the problem of their number and time to stay in.(18:19 ...)

Peace

Mazhar

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2019, 11:18:55 AM »
There is no such phrase, title 'Seven sleepers'.

A possessive phrase develops a relationship. The word أَصْحَـٟـبَ does not occur as first element with number, This word is the first element for both the following words, since both are in genitive case; and this word is itself definite by construct. Thereby, both are locations. Nothing else can be derived from the phrase.

Iyyaka

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2019, 11:45:41 AM »
Yes you're right no "title 'Seven sleepers'" probably this christian story was known as "aṣḥāba l-kahfi" as the Quran testifies...

But don't neglect the SIGN of the literal context BEFORE ayat (18:9) which talks about Christian dogma in (18:4...6).

Mazhar

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Re: THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2019, 01:11:36 PM »
Yes you're right no "title 'Seven sleepers'" probably this christian story was known as "aṣḥāba l-kahfi" as the Quran testifies...

But don't neglect the SIGN of the literal context BEFORE ayat (18:9) which talks about Christian dogma in (18:4...6).

It is telling periods of their history. It shows true believers were present when the majority had gone astray. Then comes the period when majority were true Muslims; the time they were raised from deep sleep. Again majority went astray by the time Qur'an was revealed.

This also reveals the time frame when their elders concocted the story of son.