Author Topic: Wife beating verse  (Read 633 times)

NK

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Wife beating verse
« on: September 16, 2019, 09:59:48 AM »
Salam,

Why are there no steps to discipline ones husband in chapter 4 verse 128 as compared to chapter 4 verse 34 where three steps are described to discipline one wife? However, both are in the state of "Nushuz"?

Why can't wife discipline to her husband? It is clearly shows that Quran also discriminates between two genders?

Thanks,
NK

huruf

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Re: Wife beating verse
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2019, 10:24:20 AM »
There is the asurdity of seeing in 4.34 any husband or any wife. It is not about husbqnds or wives, as it is clearly seen in the actual text not in the text that usage and "scholars" have induced in our fantasy.

It is about males and females, men and women in general ins society as components of the human society not about the dear omnipresent husbands when they are not even by any hint mentionned.

And substituting "disciplining" for "punishment" in legal terms is a fraud. Ther eis no disciplining of anybody or any punishments which could onlybe applied thorugh due process. There is even no cause for "disciplining" or punishing, there is merely that fear or the suspicion that something may happen. How on earth can you go about "disciplining" euphemism for punishing?

Thos who uphold such a view must then also admit that the Qur'an does not stand for due justice since the mere opinion or fealing of a partic ular is ground for a punishment, a punishment in which the accuser, the judge and the executor are the same person, and on top of everything an interested party. A complete joke.

The whole of Qur'an is made aughable that way.

Salaam 

Wakas

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Re: Wife beating verse
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2019, 10:25:56 AM »
peace NK,

Are you familiar with:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3

Quote:

4:34
husband fears uprising/disloyalty from wife
---> advise ---> abandon in bed
---> (if still no resolution) idriboo/cite them
---> authority feared breach/rift (i.e. no resolution) thus appoint arbiters

4:128
if a wife feared uprising/disloyalty from husband
---> then no blame upon them that they try to reconcile between themselves
---> but if situation continues as is, i.e. no resolution, authority/arbiters can get involved (THINK: what would come before this step)

A perfect match with 4:34!

In both 4:34 and 4:128, the spouses try to reconcile first, and if it does not work one spouse cites the other/situation to the authority who can then get involved. Thus, the sequence of events in 4:34 and 4:128 are identical. All the information reinforces and compliments each other. Interestingly, there may be no other explanation that is possible that could provide such equality and coherence, i.e. idriboo MUST mean "cite/indicate, point out, declare, put/show forth" otherwise it will create inconsistencies, and any inconsistencies would have to be explained.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Amra94

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Re: Wife beating verse
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2019, 10:35:14 AM »

NK

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Re: Wife beating verse
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2019, 01:05:18 PM »
Salam Wakas,

Here is the Muhammad Asad translation of verse 128:

"And if a woman has reason to fear ill-treat­ment from her husband, or that he might turn away from her, it shall not be wrong for the two to set things peacefully to rights between themselves: for peace is best, and selfishness is ever-present in human souls. But if you do good and are conscious of Him - behold, God is indeed aware of all that you do."

There is no mentioning of authority or arbiter in the above verse. In verse 34, three steps were clearly mentioned but not in 128. The verse is not giving step by step guidance to wives as compared to husbands in the verse 34. It straight away asking wives to resolve it peacefully. Do you not think it is a discrimination against the gender? or do you think that it is the style of the Quran that it does not repeat the things which has already been described before (If we get other examples from the Quran then I can understand that point)






Wakas

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Re: Wife beating verse
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2019, 02:57:38 AM »
peace NK,


There is no mentioning of authority or arbiter in the above verse. In verse 34, three steps were clearly mentioned but not in 128. The verse is not giving step by step guidance to wives as compared to husbands in the verse 34.

My bad, I should have quoted the full excerpt so it made sense. However, I did provide the link (i.e. part 3) so you could have read it yourself.


Quote:

An interesting example also appears in 58:1-4 in which a woman argues with the prophet complaining about her husband, and how the husband has estranged/alienated her by claiming her to be as his mother's back, which was a practice of the time, making the wife unlawful for himself but also not technically divorcing her allowing her to remarry, i.e. leaving her stuck/suspended.
This is an interesting example because if we suppose this could be classed as a case of iAAradan/alienation or shiqaqa/breach/rift, then the next step the wife took was to cite her husband's behaviour/actions to the authority, which would have been the prophet at the time. The correlation is specifically with 4:129 which advises the husband not to leave her stuck/suspended and this is the EXACT situation described in 58:1-4, thus showing that in a situation of no resolution, the next step would be to cite the partner/situation to the authority. If we correlate this example to what the next step would be in 4:34, if the steps are followed and no resolution is forthcoming, the next step would be to cite the partner to the authority. This would explain how the court/authority knew of the situation between the couple in 4:35. Since 'idriboo them' is the only step in between "abandon them in bed" and the authority becoming aware of the situation, is there a Classical Arabic meaning of DRB that fits in the sequence? The answer is a resounding yes, as one of its primary and most common meanings is: to cite/propound, declare/mention, put/show forth, point out or indicate. As we can see, it is a perfect fit.
If the wife can cite her husband to the authority when the problem/deadlock in her marital situation is not her fault in 58:1-4, what is stopping the husband from doing the same with his wife in 4:34? The answer is of course: nothing.

This understanding would make The Quran cater for all possibilities, giving this view further weight. The onus is on whoever is in the wrong to either amend or initiate divorce/release, and this gives us the following theoretical possibilities:
1) husband is in the wrong, wife unhappy, he divorces wife, with compensation if applicable.
2) husband is in the wrong, wife happy, no divorce.
3) husband wishes to end marriage, wife happy, he divorces wife, with compensation if applicable.
4) wife is in the wrong, husband unhappy, she releases herself from marriage, with compensation if applicable.
5) wife is in the wrong, husband happy, no release.
6) wife wishes to end marriage, husband happy, she releases herself from marriage, with compensation if applicable.
7) whoever is in the wrong does not initiate divorce/release, spouse can cite them to court/authority, then judgement and/or arbitration as necessary etc.

For the court/authority to be involved at situation 7 also makes logical and practical sense because in a situation of unfairness a court/authority is needed for mediation/resolution. Since whichever partner initiates divorce/release may have to provide compensation, a mechanism must be in place to solve the problem if the partner in the wrong refuses to do so, most probably in order to protect their wealth. This link to wealth also perfectly explains the context surrounding both verses, 4:34 and 4:128, and why neither partner who is potentially in the wrong is initiating divorce/release, i.e. the wife in 4:34 and the husband in 4:128. It is recommended to re-read the verses bearing this understanding in mind. As we can see a coherent, logical and practical explanation is easily formed with this understanding. It should be noted that the next step after bed separation is authority involvement (e.g. divorce is made official) in 2:226-227, which matches the order in 4:34-35 and maintains internal consistency.


Also, however the court/authority came to find out about the couple in 4:34-35, how did the court/authority come to find out about the couple in 58:1-4 in the exact same situation of breach/rift, i.e. no resolution? She cited the husband to the authority. If the traditional position somehow implies the couple used a different method in 4:34 to make the authority aware of the situation, then they have to explain why the difference between the two examples, without causing a logical and practical inconsistency. For example, in "K. al nasikh wa-l-mansukh" by Abu Ubaid al-Qasim b. Sallam (d. 224AH/839), one of the earliest works in its field, it comments on the tafsir/interpretation of 4:35 and says "the story establishes the principle that the spouses may withdraw their invitation to the authorities to act". Thus, it is clear from the traditional commentary the spouse would inform the court/authority of the problem, before they intervened. This provides a perfect link with DaRaBa and all points to one answer: in a situation of no reconciliation and the partner in the wrong will not initiate divorce/release, the step prior to the authority intervening is for one partner to cite/indicate the other (to the authority).

Interestingly, it is often noted that for the husband, iAAradan/alienation by the wife is not mentioned in 4:34, yet it is mentioned in 4:128 when done by the husband, but if we imagine that the husband is trying to advise/counsel his wife and it does not work, then abandons her in bed, making her reflect further, and this does not work, then this does imply an element of alienation by the wife to her husband, i.e. she is not listening to him, she is unresponsive, not compromising, they are growing apart. This would make the two situations much more alike in comparison.

Since shiqaqa means breach/rift without talaq/divorce in 4:35, then arbitration should be called for in 4:128-129, as this is a clear example of breach/rift IF the situation continues as is, but arbitration is not automatically called for: why? This identifies why The Quran states in 4:128 "...then there is no blame upon them that they reconcile between themselves a reconciliation, and the reconciliation is better", i.e. better than an irreconcilable breach/rift between them. As it implies at this point, others would be involved or at least can get involved if requested, but there is no blame upon them that they attempt to reconcile between themselves first.
It is very important to note the "fa" in Arabic which means "so/then" and is a conjunctive which links two related statements together, so when it says "...then there is no blame upon them that they reconcile between themselves..." it is because of what came before: "And IF a woman feared from her husband uprising/disloyalty or turning away /alienation...". So, the obvious question is: why the difference between 4:128 and 4:34 when the husband fears uprising/disloyalty from his wife, as 4:34 gives steps in-between, THEN discusses mediation by others? To illustrate what I mean, see the diagram below:

(the rest is what I quoted previously)
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org